[Rossoneri]

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MPs

Before you say wtp, here is the twist: Due to an irregularity, partner has to pass throughout the auction, including his first pass.

Now, what would you bid?

This post has been edited by Rossoneri: 2011-August-10, 02:01

[vianu2]

Rossoneri, on 2011-August-09, 23:24, said:

Now, what would you bid?

1♠
If i am in good mood may open 4 but now i am tired

[Mbodell]

Rossoneri, on 2011-August-09, 23:24, said:

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Before you say wtp, here is the twist: Due to an irregularity, partner has to pass throughout the auction.

Now, what would you bid?

Do we assume partner's pass was legitimate and then the irregularity occurred, or is partner's pass an enforced pass? If partner's pass is an enforced pass then I assume partner has 9 or 10 points and 2 or 3 spades (plus or minus a lot in both strength and shape) and in IMPs I'd want to be in 4 spades (which is what I voted). At MP probably 2 spades is enough.

[campboy]

Mbodell, on 2011-August-10, 00:03, said:

Do we assume partner's pass was legitimate and then the irregularity occurred, or is partner's pass an enforced pass? If partner's pass is an enforced pass then I assume partner has 9 or 10 points and 2 or 3 spades (plus or minus a lot in both strength and shape) and in IMPs I'd want to be in 4 spades (which is what I voted). At MP probably 2 spades is enough.

That's a good point, which hadn't occurred to me when I voted (for 2♠). If the irregularity happened before his initial pass then I suppose 4♠ is worth a shot.

Thinking about it, it seems very likely that the irregularity happened before his initial pass. The scenario is consistent with me having bid out of turn at partner's turn to bid but not with a BOOT at RHO's turn. I think I would need to have made an inadmissible (re)double to perma-silence partner after his pass.

[Rossoneri]

Edited for clarity.

[JLOGIC]

If we know partner meant to pass on the first round and now has to pass, then it seems like opening 2H is reasonable. When better to psyche than when partner is forced to pass throughout and we know has a weakish hand and so is ours?

If partner had to pass and we knew nothing about the hand I would just open 4S, wtp?

All of this is assuming the information we have is legal (I have no clue if it is) and if we are allowed to psyche based on it.

[nige1]

Rossoneri, on 2011-August-09, 23:24, said:

MPs Before you say wtp, here is the twist: Due to an irregularity, partner has to pass throughout the auction, including his first pass. Now, what would you bid?

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JLOGIC, on 2011-August-10, 05:44, said:

If we know partner meant to pass on the first round and now has to pass, then it seems like opening 2H is reasonable. When better to psyche than when partner is forced to pass throughout and we know has a weakish hand and so is ours? If partner had to pass and we knew nothing about the hand I would just open 4S, wtp? All of this is assuming the information we have is legal (I have no clue if it is) and if we are allowed to psyche based on it.

I think it's illegal to take advantage of this situation by psyching

[the hog]

nige1, on 2011-August-10, 05:55, said:

I think it's illegal to take advantage of this situation by psyching

Where in the laws does it say this Nigel?

[Rossoneri]

the hog, on 2011-August-10, 06:22, said:

Where in the laws does it say this Nigel?

I suspect Law 23 might cover this.

[nige1]

the hog, on 2011-August-10, 06:22, said:

Where in the laws does it say this Nigel?

Unsure. No doubt a legal expert will clarify but, grasping at straws, AFIK...

• The laws allow regulating authorities to forbid you to vary agreements contingent on an irregularity. Many jurisdictions take this option. I accept that whether you can have an "agreement" to pseudo-psych a call when partner is silenced is a moot point.
• Many jurisdictions have regulations against controlled psychs. Arguably, this is the perfect context for a controlled psych.

Ah I see that Rossoneri has come to my rescue Thank you

TFLB, L23 said:

Whenever, in the opinion of the Director, an offender could have been aware at the time of his irregularity that this could well damage the non-offending side, he shall require the auction and play to continue (if not completed). When the play has been completed the Director awards an adjusted score if he considers the offending side has gained an advantage through the irregularity*.
* as, for example, by partner's enforced pass.

Nevertheless, IMO, the hog has a point ...

• Is bidding 2♥ really an irregularity? and
• Does law 23 also apply to other opportunist efforts like 4♠?

I'm afraid that, as usual, the rules of Bridge are fragmented, over-complex, unclear, and confusing (but fixable with some effort at unification and simplification)

[campboy]

Bidding 2♥ isn't the irregularity. Whatever you did to silence partner is, and if you could have known *at that point* that it would be to your advantage to silence partner then law 23 comes into play. FWIW I think it obviously doesn't apply in this case. If you had a 2-count then it might be a problem.

Anyway, I suspect there is little to gain by psyching here since you presumably silenced partner by opening 1♠ out of turn.

[hrothgar]

nige1, on 2011-August-10, 05:55, said:

I think it's illegal to take advantage of this situation by psyching

That's fine and dandy.

I think that butter crunch ice cream is nasty.
However, my personal preferences have zero impact on whether or not butter crunch ice cream is sold.

[nige1]

campboy, on 2011-August-10, 09:19, said:

Bidding 2♥ isn't the irregularity. Whatever you did to silence partner is, and if you could have known *at that point* that it would be to your advantage to silence partner then law 23 comes into play. FWIW I think it obviously doesn't apply in this case. If you had a 2-count then it might be a problem. Anyway, I suspect there is little to gain by psyching here since you presumably silenced partner by opening 1♠ out of turn.

If, later in the auction, you make a misleading bid that takes advantage of partner's enforced silence, is that really OK? Anyway ...

• 2♥ is not so easy to counter when local regulations forbid opponents to vary their agreements in the light of the infraction. Also,
• If, for example, you have opened a heavy multi 2♦ (or any artificial bid) out of turn, then, in any jurisdiction, a psych may be harder for opponents to cope with.

[PetteriLem]

I am almost completely unaware of the law. Let's assume that the opener was forced to pass until the end of auction.
Your system is strong pass. Would u alert the pass, is the system on and can u deviate from it?

[gnasher]

Law 23 doesn't make it illegal to psyche 2♥ - it just means that if you psyche 2♥ and gain as a result, you won't keep your score.

[hrothgar]

nige1, on 2011-August-10, 09:45, said:

If you make a later misleading bid that takes advantage of partner's enforced silence. Is that really OK?

According all the precedents I am aware of - and I have seen a fair amount of discussion of this explicit topic - the answer is a resounding "Yes".

I have even seen (joking) discussions regarding the legality of deliberately making an insuffucient bid in order to perpetrate a particularly pretty psyche.

(For the record, everyone agrees that the latter is strictly verboten)

[nige1]

PetteriLem, on 2011-August-10, 09:48, said:

I am almost completely unaware of the law. Let's assume that the opener was forced to pass until the end of auction. Your system is strong pass. Would u alert the pass, is the system on and can u deviate from it?

I think you can revert to natural but it's an interesting question

[ArtK78]

nige1, on 2011-August-10, 07:53, said:

* Many jurisdictions have regulations against controlled psychs. Arguably, this is the perfect context for a controlled psych.

While no one has commented on this statement, I thought I would point out that the poster is using the term "controlled psyche" incorrectly. Actually, the term is "psychic control," not controlled psyche.

The term "psychic control" comes from Roth-Stone, in which there were systemic psyches and specified responses to determine whether partner had psyched. For example, opener was required systemically to open one of a major on 3-6 HCP and 4 or more in the suit (it may have been 5 or more in the suit - I don't remember). A 2NT response to a 1 of a major opening showed 22-24 HCP and was forcing on a psychic opening bid. The 2NT bid is a psychic control.

Psychic controls are no longer allowed.

[nige1]

gnasher, on 2011-August-10, 10:01, said:

Law 23 doesn't make it illegal to psyche 2♥ - it just means that if you psyche 2♥ and gain as a result, you won't keep your score.

Thank you gnasher. I think I understand now but, arguably, it is splitting hairs to say:

• It is not illegal but
• The law ensures that it can lose but it can never gain and (presumably)
• In a 50-50 decision, the director will tend to rule against offenders.

[campboy]

nige1, on 2011-August-10, 09:45, said:

If, later in the auction, you make a misleading bid that takes advantage of partner's enforced silence, is that really OK?

Yes. You are never prohibited from doing that. The TD should adjust only if he thinks that you could have known this would be better than not silencing partner in the first place, and even if he does so the subsequent misleading bid is not itself an infraction (so the TD may only adjust based on what might have happened if partner had never been silenced; he may not "disallow" your misleading bid).

The relevant law is 10C4.

Quote

Subject to Law 16D2, after rectification of an infraction it is appropriate for the offenders to make any call or play advantageous to their side, even though they thereby appear to profit through their own infraction (but see Laws 27 and 50).

[edit for those who don't want to look it up: the three laws referred to are about unauthorised information, insufficient bids and penalty cards respectively.]