[PassedOut]

Like many others, I know families with kids who are US citizens and parents who -- though otherwise wonderful people -- are illegal immigrants. Partly because of that and partly because I lived in Atlanta for many years, I found this article compelling: Republican mayor in the South becomes unlikely advocate for immigrants

Quote

"I really don't know what your beliefs are on this issue," he says, "but I'm going to persuade you."

Bridges wants the federal government to come up with a solution that gives the millions of undocumented immigrants in the United States a chance to work here legally.

"You get me an invite to that Tea Party meeting and I'm going ... I'd like to give the contrary viewpoints. Surely one person in the audience is going to be sympathetic."

Bridges is an unlikely soldier on the front lines of the nation's immigration debate. The 58-year-old native Southerner describes himself as a conservative Republican. For years, he knew little about immigrants but didn't lack strong opinions about them: "They were just low-class people," he recalls. "They weren't even able to speak English."

Bridges' English is laced with a folksy drawl; he tosses out phrases such as "heck no" and "that just flew all over me." But he can switch into the singsongy Spanish of a Mexican farmworker. And he counts immigrants among his closest friends.

Bridges is one of more than a dozen plaintiffs suing Georgia and its governor, trying to stop the state's new immigration law. They won a reprieve Monday when a federal judge temporarily blocked parts of the law scheduled to go into effect July 1.

I understand about protecting the border, and so on, and I agree with that. But we have millions of people among us who, while here illegally, are no more terrorists than are the 6-year-old kids and ninety-year-old cancer patients that get felt up by airport security people.

We had a similar situation when Reagan was president and found a way to regularize the status of many fine, productive folks. Bush tried to do that too, but could not pull it off. But he was right, and it still needs doing.

[Bbradley62]

It is not at all surprising that the mayor of a small town whose economy depends on cheap farm labor should be a spokesman for his position.

From Wikipedia (except for the suits):
The Immigration Reform and Control Act (IRCA), aka Simpson-Mazzoli Act:
♣required employers to attest to their employees' immigration status.
♦made it illegal to knowingly hire or recruit unauthorized immigrants.
♥granted amnesty to certain seasonal agricultural illegal immigrants.
♠granted amnesty to illegal immigrants who entered the United States before January 1, 1982 and had resided there continuously.

Two main problems with passing such a law today: (1) a more sympathetic Democratic Congress passed the last one and we have a less sympathetic Republican Congress now, and (2) those who remember the last one know that the amnesty part was granted, but the rules parts have not been seriously enforced, and one side of this negotiation isn't gonna get burned again.

[kenberg]

I have never really been able to figure out where I stand on this. A lot of it seems hypocritical. If we, as a country, really wanted to shut down illegal immigration it seems likely that we could do a pretty good job of it. For the most part they come here for jobs, they get hired because 1. they are cheap and 2. enforcement of laws preventing their hiring seems to be lax. If the consequences of hiring undocumented workers were stiff enough the practice would stop. It would be cheaper to hire legals and avoid the fine.

There are a lot of things that people love to rail about but somehow just keep going on.

I am fine with immigrants, my father came through Ellis Island. But I would think that the country reasonably should control how many and from where. Exactly why it is that we do not do so is an interesting question to which I don't know the answer.

If I may add something that is at least slightly related: When did the phrase "jobs Americans won't do" come into popularity? At some point it seems to have become accepted fact that some jobs are just too menial for Americans. I understand not taking a job because the pay is too low, but it seems that once the pay is brought to a living wage most of us could do it.

[onoway]

Probably the same as here in Canada. Nobody wants to work for minimum wage..and for good reason, it's not possible to do more than barely survive on it, esp if the person wants the sort of lifestyle to which most North Americans feel they are entitled. Many businesses can't afford to pay more than minimum wage. Menial work is also often very hard physical work and people aren't used to that idea and lots of people simply cant cope. One young man was told to bring a sack of something or other to the rig (about 50 feet)and he started out carrying it on his back, then on a shoulder, then cradled in his arms, then on a hip, then trying to walk like a duck with it in his lap and finally trying to drag it along the ground (where the bag split and spilled). The other guys watched this performance with disbelief. Although he was apparently a healthy 20 year old he simply wasn't capable of doing the work.

Also, sometimes physical work involves some unpleasantness...talk to people about doing plumbing and the first things they think about? a) the money and b) cleaning out clogged toilets, at which point they happilly fork over the money. Or it might involve such things as being made very aware you are considered lower on the social scale than other people. When I was 15 I worked for a wealthy family for the summer and both the other girl and I were told we would be fired if the parents caught us talking to their 17 year old son! Many of the more expensive resorts have policies that 'staff" do not interact with guests except on a very minimal and work related level. If you don't have a sense of the ridiculous this could be quite painful. If you do then you may get yourself fired:).

. Also,in North America at least, there has grown to be this idiotic idea that people who are not "professional" somethings or other are somehow lower on the food chain, less intelligent, closer to our chimpanzee cousins, so to speak.(A legacy of our school system..smart kids do the academic subjects, dumb kids do vocational.)

A lot of immigrants don't necessarilly share this concept and are simply happy to have a job and what they see as a chance to live a better life than they would have had in their home country. Many kids growing up here, don't see the jobs available to them as being a chance to live a better life than that they are used to in their parent's home. They already have pretty much everything they want so why would they take work that they don't want to do?

A waitress told me the other day that her ex fiancee's family were shocked to hear she wanted to stay home and raise a family instead of having a "career". She was unable to see the point of going to university when she didn't WANT to work out. Also, her then fiancee had spent several years and many dollars getting a degree which had not translated into a job; he had been supported by his parents for the couple of years since he left university and was unable to find work in his field. She didn't think that could be called success, exactly. She was very tentative and defensive when she told me this and was clearly waiting to be told that yes she should try to 'better" herself. I thought..how LUCKY she was to know what she wanted and to keep that goal in focus!

[kenberg]

The Washington Post has a related article this morning.

http://www.washingto...pH_story_1.html

The issue: A recent Maryland law allows, in certain circumstances, in-state tuition rates at the University of Maryland and other places for high school graduates coming from families who are here illegally. It appears this will go to a public referendum. The Univ of MD is particularly relevant because the tuition is high compared to other public campuses in the state:

Quote

Those who go on to earn an associate’s degree could transfer to a four-year institution at in-state rates. At the University of Maryland, tuition was $8,415 for in-state students, compared with $24,830 for out-of-state students.

Should this happen, I expect to vote in favor of the in-state tuition. But I don't like the situation. If the kids are here and are going to stay here then I favor treating them decently and, in particular, educating them. A bunch of uneducated young people is not a good thing for anyone. But the federal government (rightly) asserts its authority in immigration matters, they just don't much do anything. If the feds did it right, the states wouldn't have these issues.

[PassedOut]

kenberg, on 2011-June-28, 20:58, said:

A lot of it seems hypocritical. If we, as a country, really wanted to shut down illegal immigration it seems likely that we could do a pretty good job of it. For the most part they come here for jobs, they get hired because 1. they are cheap and 2. enforcement of laws preventing their hiring seems to be lax. If the consequences of hiring undocumented workers were stiff enough the practice would stop. It would be cheaper to hire legals and avoid the fine.

Strict enforcement of hiring laws was supposed to follow the Reagan amnesty but, as one poster pointed out, the failure by both republican and democratic administrations to accomplish that has raised the level of opposition to a new round of immigration reform. At the risk of oversimplifying, I suggest that republicans don't enforce those laws because they don't want to piss off the businesses that do the hiring and democrats don't enforce them because they don't want to piss off the voters in immigrant communities. And perhaps some businesses don't want their workers to be legal because illegals cannot risk demanding the enforcement of labor laws.

But it's not just businesses who hire illegals. In every city I've ever lived, there have been places where workers gather waiting for someone to drive up and offer jobs: remodeling, roofing, yard work, what have you. You describe the work you need done to one of the guys and settle upon the price. He brings over his crew and does the work honestly and well and gets paid in cash. No papers are checked. Everybody knows about this, including people in the government who also make use of it.

onoway, on 2011-June-29, 01:20, said:

A lot of immigrants don't necessarilly share this concept and are simply happy to have a job and what they see as a chance to live a better life than they would have had in their home country.

That's certainly the case with the folks I know.

Not exactly related, but I think that the expansion of gay rights in the US began when more people began to come out of the closet and we saw our own relatives and friends among them. It's harder for most of us to abide the oppression of those we care about. That's similar to what happened to the Georgia mayor and his illegal immigrants. But a big difference is that gays cannot be deported and separated completely from the lives they have built.

[kenberg]

I don't think I would favor requiring individual transactions to be closely monitored. A guy comes around from time to time and does some tree work. He doesn't speak English, his Anglo wife handles things, I would be embarrassed to suggest that since he speaks Spanish he is probably breaking the law.

Regular work done for companies is another matter. I recently took a group of college students for a visit to NIST. They needed proper identification. This is just the way it is done, even for a visit. I see no reason why proper identification cannot be part of the hiring process for corporations. We don't do this, or at least we don't enforce it, so I guess that some interests don't want it done.

This sort of thing is not unique to illegal immigration. It's easy to criticize government spending in the abstract, harder to rein it in by cutting someone's sacred cow. Traffic laws should be enforced until I get a ticket, then obviously the cops should not be wasting there time hassling me.

If I could enforce one rule in politics, it would be that a speaker should not be allowed to go on a binge of criticism about something unless he has thought through the consequences of doing something about it and is prepared to do it.

[blackshoe]

onoway, on 2011-June-29, 01:20, said:

A lot of immigrants don't necessarilly share this concept and are simply happy to have a job and what they see as a chance to live a better life than they would have had in their home country.

I have no problem with immigrants who take this attitude, legal or otherwise. I do have a problem with illegal immigrants who come here, send most of their income back to relatives wherever they came from, and then, when it suits them, return to their home country. I think legal immigration should be easy, simple, and quick, and that so long as you continue to demonstrate that you want to be a citizen, and not just come to make money to send "home", there should be no problem.

[PassedOut]

kenberg, on 2011-June-29, 09:26, said:

I don't think I would favor requiring individual transactions to be closely monitored.

Nor do I.

It seems to me though, that many of us who do hire such workers for odd jobs should favor immigration reform. To act otherwise smacks of exploitation.

[hrothgar]

blackshoe, on 2011-June-29, 11:27, said:

I have no problem with immigrants who take this attitude, legal or otherwise. I do have a problem with illegal immigrants who come here, send most of their income back to relatives wherever they came from, and then, when it suits them, return to their home country. I think legal immigration should be easy, simple, and quick, and that so long as you continue to demonstrate that you want to be a citizen, and not just come to make money to send "home", there should be no problem.

Perhaps I was improperly socialized, however, I really don't make any distinction between immigrants who expatriate their money and those who intend to settle more permantly. The worlds a big place and, broadly speaking, I'm strongly in favor of labor and capital mobility. I understand that many people don't like the fact that they are suddenly competing with folks willing to do the same job for less. It sucks locally, however, from a broad perspective consumer surplus is significantly increased. (This is also part of the reason that I favor a strong redistributive safety net, such that the folks who are benefitting from all these new efficiencies end up sharing the benefits from those who are negatively impacted. Its also why I favor significant investments in public education, such that folks don't need to compete with low priced laborers)

Back to the topic at hand. I wouldn't be surprised if I eventually retire to Turkey or Costa Rica or Morocco, taking my all my ill-gotten gains with me and removing all that capital from the economy. I find it very difficult to condemn someone else fror wanting to do the same.

[kenberg]

PassedOut, on 2011-June-29, 11:50, said:

Nor do I.

It seems to me though, that many of us who do hire such workers for odd jobs should favor immigration reform. To act otherwise smacks of exploitation.

Not if you saw what he charges!

[PassedOut]

kenberg, on 2011-June-29, 14:20, said:

Not if you saw what he charges!

[Vampyr]

PassedOut, on 2011-June-29, 11:50, said:

It seems to me though, that many of us who do hire such workers for odd jobs should favor immigration reform.

Everyone should favour immigration reform. In the current situation, law-abiding employers are put at a competitive disadvantage. Also, the system as it is mocks the would-be immigrants who try to get permission to emigrate through the proper channels. If there is a law, it should be enforced. If it can't be enforced, it is probably better to be realistic and change the law.

[Gerben42]

In fact I do not have a problem with immigrants who work here, pay their taxes here and then send most of their money back home, and then go back.
Very simple of an immigrant (which btw I am also) I demand:

* Learn the language. Simple as that. I don't get "I've lived here for 5 years but I still can't speak a proper sentence." Sorry, what are you doing here?
* Accept the local values. If for example you think a woman should wear a burqa when going outside, don't come to Western Europe. If on the other hand you think homosexuality is a mental disease that can and must be cured, better also stay away (yes that includes you, Mr. Bush).

Therefore I support it when immigration laws are made more strict for unqualified immigrants but the minimum wage for non-EU employees to get a residence permit should be decreased (at least in Germany it is too high at the moment).
Immigration is necessary, but on the other hand we should be picky.

To answer the original question: I don't know illegal immigrants. Maybe there are some at my foreign supermarket. But I guess not. Most immigrants I know have at least one engineering degree... Yes I know, physicists look down on engineers It's not personal, OK?

[gwnn]

Colonel Iké Dubaku was also an illegal immigrant!

[Winstonm]

I am fond of Swedish illegal immigrants. Female. Around 18-20.

[luke warm]

i don't know any either (at least i don't think i do)... my views align closely with gerben's

[mycroft]

hey, you pay your taxes, and you pay for groceries, et al? And you still find some money to send home? Bully for you. Nice about that "send $20, pay $5 exchange, family in India (say) gets equivalent to $300 for groceries" thing, isn't it? Those that don't like it, go ahead and try to replicate it, doing the jobs they do. Enjoy. I'll even let you blow the $25 Amir is sending to his family on booze.

And like hrothgar, I don't see any difference between 300 immigrants sending $20/month back to their families (*after paying their taxes*), and one rich person sending $1m into the Caymans, and *not* paying taxes on it. Or even one pair of honest hard-working middle Americans spending $5000 on a cruise on a Liberian-registered, Eastern European-crewed, but American-company ship, spending time in Caribbean resorts,...Except that the latter 2 are more selfish, and potentially more damaging to America, of course.

Of note, I am who I am today because immigration was much more welcome and much easier when my family came over than it is now (plus the fact that immigrants from "our kind" were treated better than "those kind"). I hate the clamping we're having on immigration, frankly, because it means that others can't do what my family did, and others' children won't be like me. Plus, other cultures are interesting.

I assume I know some people in the country illegally (although the only one I knew *for sure* was an American - after 2.5 years back in Dallas, he's back legitimately).

And yes, if we actually punished the businesses for hiring illegals, they'd probably stop. A lot of them would go out of business, one way (can't make a profit) or another (fined to death), and the price of a bunch of things we get for cheap would go up, and we'd hear the screams from everywhere. But it would stop.

[Vampyr]

mycroft, on 2011-June-29, 16:44, said:

And yes, if we actually punished the businesses for hiring illegals, they'd probably stop. A lot of them would go out of business, one way (can't make a profit) or another (fined to death), and the price of a bunch of things we get for cheap would go up, and we'd hear the screams from everywhere. But it would stop.

Let them scream. Our sneakers and T-shirts would also cost a lot more if Westerners refused to buy goods made in sweatshops in China or Bangladesh.

There is something seriously wrong with the prices of manufactured goods. Remember when people made their own clothes to economise? These days fabric is much more expensive than clothes ready-made from it.

[kenberg]

mycroft, on 2011-June-29, 16:44, said:

And yes, if we actually punished the businesses for hiring illegals, they'd probably stop. A lot of them would go out of business, one way (can't make a profit) or another (fined to death), and the price of a bunch of things we get for cheap would go up, and we'd hear the screams from everywhere. But it would stop.

This is, largely, my point. We could stop it, we don't, I guess we like to scream about it but not stop it. For one reason or another. Some like hiring a nanny for cheap, some want crops picked, some like to buy vegetables at low (?) prices, whatever. It's always a great applause line to deplore illegals. God help the politician who actually would get rid of them. An idiot like that would probably also really try to rein in entitlements. No no. We deplore it, we don't actually do anything about it.