[babalu1997]

i had a small argumewnt with a 2/1 partner yesterday.

back in 2005 i read max hardy`s book to learn 2/1, but the rank and file at bbo were not playing it, now that are many more who play it, but they pay hardy no attention.

now i have a partner who says he plays max hardy and i started remembering stuff from the book to play with him. Naturally i go back to the book and quote chapter and verse.

i suppose that i remeber things that have been profitable for me over the years, for example:

- no preempts in 4th seat openings
- splinters is a shape bid ( this one, presented in the beginning of the book was particularly useful, since i see folks who takes years to learn splinters).

But there was another thing that i like and use:

"Opener rebids naturally at the 3 level after a 2 over 1 response

if openers rebid after a 2 over 1 response is in a new suit at the three level, it promises one of two things, either the hand`s values are sound - 14+ hcps- or the shape is at least 5-5- pener will tend not to use up so much bidding space unless it is necessary in order to best describe the hand"

and he goes on to say

"there is a false belief in the minds of many that if opener rebids at the 2 level in the major suit that was opened, the rebids promises a 6 card or longer suit. When opener has no other way to describe, the rebid of a 5 card suit may be necessary. Responder should never jump to the conclusion that opener`s rebids has promised 6 or more cards, it simply may be a last resort, when any other rebid would have been a great distortion."

Now here is the deal, if one in fact opens distributional hands with 11 hcp, a 2 over 1 bid on 12 hcp may not generate a successful game, so i think responder should be warned and the suit shift reassures responder.

my partner insists that the 2 over 1 bid is a strict game force and at the same time, that the suit shift does not guarantee a sound opening. I think he cannot have the cake and eat too, what do you all say?

thanks

[helene_t]

Hardy style is that 2/1 is 100% GF and a reverse by opener (1♥-2m-2♠) does not promise extras. While 2/1 being 100% GF is what most people understand by 2/1 (for the simple reason that it otherwise becomes a lengthy discussion which follow-ups are forcing and which are not), most nowadays play a reverse as showing extras.

But do high reverses (1M-2♦-3♣) show extras (and/or 5-5) in Hardy style? I wasn't aware of that. If that's the case then I suppose 1♥-2♦-2♥ does not promise six. I would expect 1♥-2♣-2♥, though, to be a 6-card suit in Hardy style, but maybe I am wrong about this.

Another issue is if opener would bid his suit again with a 5332 shape. Many do that, either because a 2NT rebid would show extras in their style, or because they want flexibility wrt who declares 3NT. Obviously if you want 1♥-2♣-2♥ to show six you would have to rebid 2NT on minimal balanced hands even with a small doubleton in a pointed suit. (Or play a 2♦ rebid as nebolous but that is obviously not standard).

As for eating the cake and having it too: if you want a reverse not to promise extra values then obviously you need to play 2/1 as 100% GF. Otherwise opener would have too few ways to establish a GF. So if you want to keep your cake you would have to eat it also.

BTW, you talk about change of suit, but this discussion only applies to reverses. A non-reverse change of suit clearly doesn't show extras. I am not aware of any system in which it would, 2/1 or otherwise.

[Mbodell]

helene_t, on 2011-February-18, 10:32, said:

Hardy style is that 2/1 is 100% GF and a reverse by opener (1♥-2m-2♠) does not promise extras. While 2/1 being 100% GF is what most people understand by 2/1 (for the simple reason that it otherwise becomes a lengthy discussion which follow-ups are forcing and which are not), most nowadays play a reverse as showing extras.

Around me most play a reverse does not show extras, but a high reverse does. So after a 2/1 any bid through 2nt doesn't show extras but the 3 level does. I double check with new partners and ask them if the default bid is 2M (usual) or 2nt (occasional) and if 2 level reverses show extras (very rare).

[the hog]

Most of those who play that a reverse doesn't show extras play the weasel convention to show a good hand though.

[FrancesHinden]

babalu1997, on 2011-February-18, 10:02, said:

Now here is the deal, if one in fact opens distributional hands with 11 hcp, a 2 over 1 bid on 12 hcp may not generate a successful game, so i think responder should be warned and the suit shift reassures responder.

my partner insists that the 2 over 1 bid is a strict game force and at the same time, that the suit shift does not guarantee a sound opening. I think he cannot have the cake and eat too, what do you all say?

thanks

If you are playing 2/1 then a 2/1 is a strict game force (unless you play BW style where responder can rebid his own suit, but I hate that style). If you don't like the fact that opener might have an 11-count and responder a 12-count, then don't make a 2/1 on a 12-count. When I play 2/1, our 1NT semi-forcing rebid is alerted and described as "up to 12 HCP" [obviously some 10-12 HCP hands might be deemed a game force if they are good enough in dsitribution and pips]

As for the rest of it, there are lots of ways of playing 2/1. just agree one of them with your partner.