[Gerben42]

A question that isn't all that 2/1-specific:

Do you play trial bids of some sorts and do you feel they come up? Or are they mainly a slam exploration tool as for exploring game you would be just telling the opponents how to defend?

How do you prefer to continue in situations like 1♦ - 1♥ - 2♥ (responder is unlimited), is it much different from 1♥ - 2♥, where slam is unlikely?

[mtvesuvius]

In the first auction I like to play 2N as a raise ask, so I would play just HSGTs here.

In the second auction I usually play two-way game tries, so 2N asks what the lowest HSGT partner would accept is. 3 level calls are SSGTs.

[P_Marlowe]

we play value showing game tries, which are helpful in both scenarios,
i.e. when trying to decide if the values are fitting for game / slam.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[relknes]

You brought up the question of whether it makes it easier for the opponents to defend. I was currious if anyone uses them who has tried using them as a psych to get/discourage a particular lead when you know that you belong in game but not in slam? Seems like it would be a lot more common in a limited system than in SAYC, but just currious.

[nigel_k]

You can play that the first step is any game try. Then if responder knows what to do (which is often the case) they can do it immediately without giving anything away. If responder is unsure they can still do something scientific - you've only lost one step and now dummy is describing not declarer.

[heyrocky]

Early in Zia's "Bridge My Way" he describes such a bid by Mike Passell in the individual tournament he uses to frame the book; as Zia's partner, he made a game try after 1M - 2M (my memory isn't so good to recall which major suit) on xxx in diamonds to inhibit that lead, in case it mattered.

relknes, on 2011-January-28, 16:49, said:

You brought up the question of whether it makes it easier for the opponents to defend. I was currious if anyone uses them who has tried using them as a psych to get/discourage a particular lead when you know that you belong in game but not in slam? Seems like it would be a lot more common in a limited system than in SAYC, but just currious.

[MrAce]

Gerben42, on 2011-January-28, 15:02, said:

Do you play trial bids of some sorts and do you feel they come up? Or are they mainly a slam exploration tool as for exploring game you would be just telling the opponents how to defend?

Good question.

I play a very few invitational bids for game, and very few trial bids. And yes, passing ball to each other, makes the lead more accurate, and later the defense as well.

[FrancesHinden]

Yes, I play various forms of trial bids. They do come up, although more often looking for the right game (i.e. 4M or 3NT) or slam, but genuine game tries come up sometimes.

My partner and I alert our short suit game tries as "either a short suit try for game or slam, or a game hand trying to avert a lead in the suit" as it's such a common tactical bid.

We play different methods after 1D - 1H - 2H than after 1H - 2H because if the first auction we might not have an 8-card heart fit, while in the second responder is known always (OK nearly always) to have three trumps. We play basically the same methods after 1H - 2H and after 1C - 1D (xfer) - 2H (4-card support) for simplicity, although we suspect this isn't completely best.

After a Drury bid not directly below our suit (1S - 2C, 1S - 2D and 1H - 2C) we play step 1 followed by another bid over 2M as specifically a game try and everything higher than 2 of our suit immediately as a slam try. That allows partner just to jump to game opposite the game try, but to go more slowly with a good hand opposite a slam try.

We play Romex tries in a lot of auctions, where an immediate suit bid is a short suit try, and step 1 shows an unspecified long suit try (responder bids step 1 to ask). This applies at the 2-level when we are known to have an 8-card fit, and the 3-level when we are known to have a 9-card fit. (3NT is too useful as a natural call when we have a 5-3 fit).

[whereagles]

Help suit game trial are the simplest and most natural trials available.

However, unfortnately they are also the hardest to use and the ones that require the most discussion. This is because it's not automatic to define what a "help suit" is. Example: what qualifies as a help suit?

Axx
Kxx
AKx
KJx

In these cases pard's holding of Qxx will be fine opposite cases 3 and 4 and not so hot opposite 1 and 2.

Short suit and open suit (xxx type of suit) are much easier to use/evaluate, albeit less natural.

[Fluffy]

whereagles, on 2011-January-31, 04:18, said:

Short suit and open suit (xxx type of suit) are much easier to use/evaluate, albeit less natural.

open suit is ridicoulous, for telling the opponents what they should lead on a thin game to be not totally hopeless you have to psych it all the time

[whereagles]

It's a trade-off. You might pin point a lead but will score some thin games with xxx/Axx opposite x/xx due to low wastage. Anyway, I didn't say it's better. Just that it's simpler to use

[Free]

I prefer the option to have 2 sorts of trials available. Step 1 encorporates one type (for example LST), and steps 2-4 are another type (for example SST). After Step 1 responder can relay, and opener has 3 steps to describe his trial.

Do they come up? Yes. Most common imo is SST, or looking for a 4-4 fit OM imo.

Are they useful? I haven't studied them, so I can't really tell. What I do know is that it's very important to describe what you expect from a long suit trial. SST are simple, responder just looks at his hand, and if he doesn't have too many wasted values he can just bid game. But LST are more tricky, you need to write down the possible holdings, and figure out there aren't any hands responder can hold where he can't make a good decision (ex. if you allow AKJx till 9432, then what should responder do with Qxx?).

[peachy]

whereagles, on 2011-January-31, 04:18, said:

Help suit game trial are the simplest and most natural trials available.

Here we touch the terminology problem that seeems to be common.
HSGT is definitely not the same as natural game try.

After 1M-2M, when using HSGT, opener's new suit bid is typically Jxx, Qxx or even xxx. The aim is to avoid three quick losers in this suit and responder gives s positive with xx, x, Axx, Kx or similar.
Using natural game tries, opener bids s second suit which typically is KJxx, Axxx, QJxx or such and responder upgrades honors, even lower honors in this suit.

[phil_20686]

I think everyone should play kokish game tries after 1M-2M. Basically first step ask responder to bid the first suit in which he would accept a long suit trial. This also tends to give less away as often partner simply signs off or bids game and either way nothing is revealed. Other bids are short suit tries. Now you can have hte best of both worlds. Best thin about the short suit try is that now your auto splinters always show voids. Its a real loser when you ahve to bid an auto splinter opposite 1h-2h-3s say, and partner doesnt know if his Axxx is massive or terrible.

[aguahombre]

1♥-2♥
?

1m-1♥
2♥-?

In these, and similar, since we haven't a clue as to what a "help-suit" looks like --we just do the following:

Cheapest suit=somewhat random, but not a stiff or void. Pard can show a concentration in one of the higher suits if in-between accepting and not accepting game in the major.

Next cheapest suit=says more about the suit bypassed than about the bid suit. Pard, in deciding whether to accept game will ignore secondary honors in the bypassed suit if "on the fence", and can show a concentration in the remaining suit below trump if appropriate.

Highest suit tends to be a true 2-suiter game try without much interest in secondary crud in either of the other suits.

This scheme was advocated by some quite notable West Coast players way back, some forty years ago. Obviously, if the trial bidder later shows interest in slam rather than just game, then the meanings of previous bids change in retrospect. (cheapest trial becomes a serious source of side tricks, etc)


Just another point of view for consideration. We have gotten quite comfortable with it.

[Free]

phil_20686, on 2011-February-11, 10:19, said:

I think everyone should play kokish game tries after 1M-2M. Basically first step ask responder to bid the first suit in which he would accept a long suit trial. This also tends to give less away as often partner simply signs off or bids game and either way nothing is revealed. Other bids are short suit tries. Now you can have hte best of both worlds. Best thin about the short suit try is that now your auto splinters always show voids. Its a real loser when you ahve to bid an auto splinter opposite 1h-2h-3s say, and partner doesnt know if his Axxx is massive or terrible.

How do you find a 4-4 fit in the unbid Major?

[Quantumcat]

I play short-suit game-tries, which say if you have nothing wasted in this suit that's a good thing.
I think they are better than long-suit game tries, reponder doesn't know which cards are the most useful (queens, aces, singletons) and doesn't always make the right decision. Also a strong hand will probably have more than one suit with high cards in it, but could only ask for one in the long-suit try. You are unlikely to want to make more than one short-suit try.

3♥/3♣/3♦ are short suit tries if opening is 1♠. 2NT is a balanced try.
If opening is 1♥, 2NT is the short-suit try in spades and 2♠ shows 4 hearts, longer diamonds and 16-19 (because of other things in our system, this is a possibility).