[InTime]

Scoring: MP

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This hand came up at a club evening:
The bidding:
2♣ - Pass - 2♠ - Pass
?
Any suggestions how to continue on these horror hands?
Regards

[gwnn]

you should have opened 1♥ in my little opinion. Now you will have to try bidding 3H, partner will bid 4NT quantitative and you will bid 6C and all will be well. However, in practice nobody plays 4NT as quantitative even though it's superior. Just letting you know how it could work.

But if you open 2♣ there's an excellent chance that you will not know what you will be doing.

[cloa513]

3♥,3♠,5♣ (expresses lack of controls), 5NT, 6H

[gnasher]

I usually play as positive as forcing as far as 4NT. That helps with sorting out what trumps are:

2♣-2♠
3♥-3NT
4♣-4♥

But we still have a problem: from opener's point of view he might be facing ♠AK and no red-suit ace; from responder's point of view there might be a problem with one of the minors.

Maybe responder should just drive slam from here, but his high cards aren't necessarily in the right places.

[gwnn]

that's a nice agreement gnasher but what happens if we want to play 4S or something? I mean partner has a nice spade suit but nothing else and we have some unbalanced hand with Hx of spades

[effervesce]

Good hand for specific aces. But without such a convention, I'd have opened 1♥, jumpshift to 3♣. Opening 2♣ just doesn't allow you enough room to show both suits, and you're hardly gonna get passed out in 1♥...

[gnasher]

gwnn, on Jun 12 2010, 11:47 AM, said:

that's a nice agreement gnasher but what happens if we want to play 4S or something? I mean partner has a nice spade suit but nothing else and we have some unbalanced hand with Hx of spades

Yes, it only works if you keep your positive responses up to strength. I wouldn't give a positive on KQJxxx and nothing else, if that's the sort of hand you're thinking of.

[mike777]

edit.


2c=2d
2h=2s
3c=3d
3h=4h
4nt=6h

2c=way too strong for a one bid, I could never catch up and tell my hand. 2losers
2d= spades too weak for 2s, 2d=random a or k
3d=extras, with a minimum I need to find another bid.
4nt=void in spades....4s would have been rkc, kickback in h.

[gnasher]

mike777, on Jun 12 2010, 06:58 PM, said:

2c=2d
2h=2s
3c=3d
3h=4h

Was 4♥ non-forcing? And if so, how much of East's 11-count has he shown?

[mike777]

gnasher, on Jun 13 2010, 03:58 AM, said:

mike777, on Jun 12 2010, 06:58 PM, said:

2c=2d
2h=2s
3c=3d
3h=4h

Was 4♥ non-forcing? And if so, how much of East's 11-count has he shown?

4h not forcing of course



3d shows extra......how much ....undis.

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At this point opener has shown...a 4 loser hand...not more------
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in this example ....opener and responder have extra......too hard to stop slam..


can we go down...yes..


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at this point responder has shown.....extras......interest in slam...how much more....debate....
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4nt lets for sake of discussion say....4nt shows better than 4 losser hand....how much more...undisc.

[Hanoi5]

Excellent advice by gwnn, opening 1♥ with that hand is without danger with a spade void and 21 HCP's outside (i.e. you won't be left to play 1♥, one of the 'fears' you may have).

At this point (2♣-2♠) you can only bid 3♥, I guess your pd would bid 4♥ and you 4♠ (which should be a cue-bid); he'll key-card and you'll respond 5NT which he'll take to 6♥. I guess your partner would bid just 5♥ with no heart Ace in his hand.

[Cyberyeti]

gnasher, on Jun 12 2010, 05:38 AM, said:

I usually play as positive as forcing as far as 4NT.  That helps with sorting out what trumps are:

2♣-2♠
3♥-3NT
4♣-4♥

But we still have a problem: from opener's point of view he might be facing ♠AK and no red-suit ace; from responder's point of view there might be a problem with one of the minors.

Maybe responder should just drive slam from here, but his high cards aren't necessarily in the right places.

I don't think your auction has much of a problem, bid 5C over 4H. What else can you have, a hand unsuitable for blackwood, that is good enough for a 2C opener ? I think the spade void is close to nailed on. It looks like 6 hearts and 5 clubs, the question is would you in partnership style open 2C on void, KQJxxx, xx, AKQJx ? If not, partner will picture a diamond card and bid 6.

[effervesce]

Hanoi5, on Jun 13 2010, 08:46 AM, said:

Excellent advice by gwnn, opening 1♥ with that hand is without danger with a spade void and 21 HCP's outside (i.e. you won't be left to play 1♥, one of the 'fears' you may have).

At this point (2♣-2♠) you can only bid 3♥, I guess your pd would bid 4♥ and you 4♠ (which should be a cue-bid); he'll key-card and you'll respond 5NT which he'll take to 6♥. I guess your partner would bid just 5♥ with no heart Ace in his hand.

I think a 4♠ cuebid of a void in partner's suit is truly awful. Partner will evaluate his KQJxx of spades highly thinking you have the ace of spades. Or even worse alternatively partner might think your 4♠ bid is natural...

[mich-b]

gnasher, on Jun 12 2010, 05:38 AM, said:

I usually play as positive as forcing as far as 4NT.  That helps with sorting out what trumps are:

2♣-2♠
3♥-3NT
4♣-4♥

We play that a positive is forcing to 4M.
Meaning that 3NT from either side is forcing , leaving room to sort out fits.
We can stop in 4NT if we dont find any good fit on the 4 level.

4M though is non-forcing and suggests to play.

[pirate22]

Nothing wrong with a 2cl opener-providing one has an intelligent partner,
the responders hand is good so bid 2d (auto)alerted 0-11 points.pard now bids 2hts,the intelligent partner should know pard has a big single suited hand or a 2 suiter---so responder bids 2sp--now opener bids 3cl- and responder goes for it 4/t ace ask.BINGO.

To bid 2sp initially is asking for problems-the reason why i bid 2d(auto) i want to know what sort of hand my partner has opened 2cl on

[Codo]

I think it is a real bad system you use.
It is ridicolous to waste so much bidding space with good hands.

I belive that it is a winner to make 2 diamond artifical and positive.

2 ♣ 2 ♦
2 ♥ 2 ♠
3 ♣ 3 ♥
3 NT 4 ♠
5 ♣ 6 ♥ (not RCK, cause of the void...)

[ArtK78]

I truly dislike the 2♣ opening on distributional hands with less than game in hand.

If I open 2♣ and hear it go 4♠ on my left (or 3♠ - P - 4♠) there is no way I am going to be able to show both of my suits. But if I open 1♥ I can bid clubs at any level if I choose to do so.

[ggwhiz]

Quote

you should have opened 1♥ in my little opinion

I agree 100% with gwyn and Art.

It will never go float at MP's when you have a ♠ void unless both opps are over 80.

After pards 1♠ response, I play 3♣ is a game force and if the opps come in, a cuebid and other strong options are there. It just seems like too complicated a hand to approach without the extra bidding room.

Agree with Codo too, if you insist on opening 2♣.

2♣ - 2♦
2nt is the most likely response and followed by a transfer from responder is a much cleaner auction. Especially when the 2♠ response might be self-pre-empting.

[aguahombre]

ggwhiz, on Jun 14 2010, 09:59 AM, said:

Quote

you should have opened 1♥ in my little opinion

I agree 100% with gwyn and Art.

Come on, guys. Keep it a secret You want the opps to open 2C with this hand, and you want them to make the rest of the auction as convoluted as possible by not being able to respond 2S for fear it will pre-empt opener's 2-suiter.

[gwnn]

there is no y in my nickname. Please only misspell it when you disagree with me or you prove that I am a fool. Do not misspell it when you agree with me or you prove that I am clever.