[jillybean]

Scoring: MP

(2♥) P (4♥) ?

---

[gwnn]

x for now, awaiting follow-ups

[MFA]

yep

[jdonn]

What 5 level decision?

[jillybean]

gwnn, on May 28 2010, 02:46 PM, said:

x for now, awaiting follow-ups

What is X for you?

[Cascade]

Double takeout

This hand is a little better than a minimum for this action.

[aguahombre]

I think the math bears out that this hand is a double of 1♥, 2♥, 3♥. or 4♥ (hearts raised to that level, or opened at that level). And that might seem strange to a lot of folks. I can't prove it, except by the fact that it has seemed to work over the years.

[gwnn]

Double is takeout, similar to the X of 1♥. However there are two classes of hands that make this a somewhat different handtype:

1. Hands that double 1♥ for takeout but not 2♥-p-4♥ because they are too weak. You need a little more in your auction than after 1♥-?. Mind you, in my humble opinion the difference is not huge. I would say that with an ideal 4144 shape the difference should be about a queen, maybe a little more.

2. Hands that double 2♥-p-4♥ but do not double 1♥ because you have a better option over 1♥. For example if you have a simple little diamonds hand like
QJx
x
AKxxxx
Axx

You are happy to bid 2♦ with this hand of course if RHO opens 1♥ but the diamonds are not nearly enough for a 5 level bid. This does not mean that you have to be sure that 5♦ is a good contract if you bid 5♦. However, you still need to have good trumps to be able to suggest them for a 5 level contract.

More importantly, however, doubling on the 4 level is attractive because partner will always pass it if he is balanced. As the very boring adage says, it is easier to win 4 tricks than 11. Unless you are reasonably sure that your hand really really likes to play and prefers not to defend, you should offer the possibility of defending 4♥ doubled. Bear in mind also that bidding 4♠ is a completely different matter to bidding 5m. You should be prepared to routinely bid 4♠ in this position with most 6 card suits (and opening values or so). Bidding spades is a level lower and it has an excellent annoyance factor (oh no, they bid spades over hearts again).

So we saw that bidding a suit is getting harder and harder on higher levels. What other hand is there that we don't have a good alternative with? A 1NT overcall. Obviously we will have many 1NT overcalls that would never dream of acting over (2H)-p-(4H) but sometimes you are so strong that you can't afford to defend 4H undoubled (which is what will happen 99% of the time when you have, say, 18) because you can easily have game. So you double and you hope partner has a suit that he was too weak to mention or that he passes and you hopefully get maybe 300 out of 4♥x, or something.

AJxx
AJx
Axx
Kxx

this is a great hand and a simple 1NT bid over 1♥ but you're stuck over 2♥-p-4♥. Partner could have a weak two bid of spades like

Kxxxxx
x
xx
Axxx

and we make 5 spades but if we don't double they will concede 50 or 100. We are just too strong to pass. To reiterate, not all 15-17 counts with a heart stop are eligible to this double, in general look for as few hcp in hearts as possible and as many Aces and Kings as posible.



As a summary: (I don't expect anyone to have read this far)

Doubling of 1♥ and 2♥-p-4♥ are the same class of hands except:

1. Sometimes you have to pass in the second case a hand that you'd doubled with in the first case because you're too weak. The difference is about a Queen or a King.

2. Sometimes you have to double in the second case that had a better option in the first case.
*Bidding a suit over 1♥ has looser criteria than over 2♥-p-4♥
*You have a natural 1NT available in the first case but not in the second case (4NT would be two-suited, usually with the minors).

[the hog]

jillybean, on May 29 2010, 04:44 AM, said:

Scoring: MP

(2♥) P (4♥) ?

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X for takeout. We are not at the 5 level yet, Kathryn.

[jillybean]

Well it was a 5 level decision after I bid 4N , I wasn't sure X would be t/o

Luckily partner bid 5♣ holding:

x,J,Q432,AQ76432


Thanks gwnn, nice explanation.

[aguahombre]

nice analysis, gwnn; but I was just talking about the given hand

[Fluffy]

gwnn are you croatian or something? you have a perfect double of 1♥ with 3163!.

seriously, I'd rather double with this shape, not sure if this is standard or not, I'd bid 1♠ with 5143 though and double at higher levels so the point is still valid for me.

[Jlall]

A textbook double and a textbook 5C bid over the double with partner's hand leading to the perfect spot. WD.

[pooltuna]

jillybean, on May 28 2010, 04:44 PM, said:

Scoring: MP

(2♥) P (4♥) ?

---

partner expects to be able to pass with weak hands fortunately we are just strong enough to risk an X because of our positional values

[gwnn]

Fluffy, on May 29 2010, 04:48 AM, said:

gwnn are you croatian or something? you have a perfect double of 1♥ with 3163!.

yes I was reminded of Reverend Dinosaur as I was writing that part

[655321]

Easy double, just as we would do if RHO opened 4♥.

[pooltuna]

Fluffy, on May 28 2010, 11:48 PM, said:

gwnn are you croatian or something? [snip]

Hmmm...I thought he was a Lavalander (maybe Ashlander would be closer)

[Free]

Dbl (definitely takeout), then partner may have a 4 or 5 level decision