[fred]

Partner opens 1H and you raise to 2H. This is passed around to your RHO who balances with 2NT (for minors).

You bid 3D. What does it mean?

I actually made this weird bid during the recent ACBL NABC in San Diego. The first person who can identify the specific hand with which I made this call, will be sent a free Bridge Base CD-ROM of their choice (there are about 30 choices the most of expensive of which sells for about $80).

Probably you would have to be a real masochist to even try to win this prize, but I thought the concept of a scavenger hunt like this might appeal to some (bored!) Forums contributors out there

I can tell you that the hand in question was computer-dealt so, in principle at least, it should be possible to find it. Knowing what I thought I was saying when I bid 3D will definitely be helpful in this regard. I will post my thoughts on 3D within the next couple of days.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[Gerben42]

Sounds like partner misunderstood

Recap:

1♥ pass 2♥ pass
pass 2NT 3♦

That IS weird. Since 2NT is for the minors you would probably double if you wanted to play 3♦X, so you cannot have that hand. Still you must have some hand that would have some potential to make 4♥ opposite the perfect partner hand. With a ♦ shortness, you lack Bomhof-compensation (♦ will be overruffed!) so that's also not it.

I think you have a hand with long ♦ but no wastage there! You have so long ♦ that you know they will play ♣ and you want to possibly hear 4♥ over 4♣.

My guess:

♠Kx
♥KQ9
♦xxxxxx
♣xx

[manudude03]

I'll take a guess at what it means. Maximum with diamond shortage (and as such has become a limit raise). Something like KTxx Axx x JTxxx.

I'll look for the right hand now .

[Little Kid]

Would you bid 3♦ ad both r/w and w/r?

[kenrexford]

Wow. Guessing the mind of Fred.

Bah! I'm spurning the prize and just providing the mind of Ken.

Normal defaults are for unusual over unusual, in most circles. I stilll have space for that, even if it seems less useful for the normal purposes. So, one structure possible is:

3♣ = taking the push, heart focus re-affirmed, game prospects
3♦ = taking the push, spade focus introduced, game prospects
3♥ = just competing.

This would be a bidding-focused idea, to cater to a real possibility that game is still possible (perhaps because Responder is concentrated in hearts and spades and maximal) but recognizing that support-with-support may have buried what may turn out to be a superior 4-4 spade fit, especially in the context of the actual auction.

Alternatively, an unusual-versus-unusual focus could also be lead-directional:

3♣ = competitive, lead hearts
3♦ = competitive, lead spades
3♥ = competitive, no lead suggestion

You could also structure the latter differently, I suppose, based on some idea of what likely leads make the most sense. Or even naturally, with 3minor asking for a lead of that suit. Who would think of natural?!?!?

I kind of like the constructive flags method, myself. Meaning, 3♦ as a promising heart raise with a previously hidden spade suit.

Of course, you could actually tweak that even more, with 3♣ or 3♦ both showing spades, one longer. In theory that makes sense, as the initial 2-only-hearts followed by movement suggests extras anyway, such that any call serves that purpose. This would make 3♣ perhaps show 4 spades, 3♦ showing 5 spades, but that's really esoteric, especially if this cannot have been discussed.

So, I'll go for 3♦ showing a promising heart raise to three with now-revealed four spades.

[Free]

2♥ showed 8-10HCP right? I guess you had around 9HCP with 5♠, 3♥ and 3-2m

[kenrexford]

Thought about the problem more over a cigarette, and I think a blended scheme makes sense, which captures all of my thoughts as to defaults and purposes and the like.

The normal default #1 is that I would expect unusual over unusual to apply, sans discussion. The second principle I would expect is that a raise suggests that the lead is OK whereas an artificial means of raising suggests an alternative lead.

So, what if we plug both in?

3♣ flags hearts. That's expected. However, by flagging hearts rather than bidding hearts, we over-ride the normal expectation that a heart lead is OK. kind of like Rosenkranz (well, reverse Rosenkranz, but whatever -- I play Reverse Rosenkranz anyway, when I do). So, 3♣ would flag hearts but suggest a different lead (maybe spades as the usual guess, contextually).

3♦ flags spades, showing the "buried spades" hand.

3♥ is just a heart raise but confirms the normal heart lead acceptance holding.

The problem with this approach, IMO, is that it presupposes a four-level call by the opponents. Of course, that's why 3♣ "contextually" would show desire for a spade lead. To fear the four-level, Responder must have a serious COV.

This "fear the four-level" concern suggests that distinguishing length of the other major is more of a concern. This would especially be the case after a 1♠ opening, where hearts will much more often be buried, no matter what the style, and where Opener could easily have 5-5. I mean, 5-5 opener, 3-5 responder is very possible. So, a parallel structure in this sequence seems reasonable, even if less obviously useful. This would suggest that 3♦ be a strong flag for the other major (5-card), whereas 3♣ flags the original major but suggests an alternative (4-card in other major).

Still must think on this.....

[fred]

Free, on Dec 16 2009, 02:21 PM, said:

2♥ showed 8-10HCP right?

Not really.

I could bid 1NT (semi-forcing) with a really bad hand containing heart support so I guess you could call 2H "semi-constructive", but it is not as if this call has a well-defined range in terms of HCPs in my partnerships.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[helene_t]

I think you hand has improved to an invite after the 2NT bid. You have no vastage in the minors.

I'll take you for void in diamonds and maybe xxxx in clubs. Or maybe Axxx. Could also be the other way round.

It could also be unusual vs unusual, i.e. you have 5-3 in the majors, just in case spades plays better than hearts. In fact you must have at least four spades if you want to compete over 3m.

My guess is something like Kxxxx-KJxx-()-xxxx

[hrothgar]

Interesting problem...

From my perspective, the most critical thing to discuss is what (broad) type of hand type is being shown. The peanut gallery seems to have identified two reasonable contenders:

1. Hands where the 2NT bid has (suddenly) encouraged us to try for game.
2. Hands that want to compete at the three level over the opponents 3m contract.

Personally, I think that its more useful to design methods to cater for hand type 2 than hand type one. I think that there are more hands that would want to compete that make a game try. Moreover, many of the hands that would revalue based on a 2NT bid that specifically shows the minors might have initially introduced Spades over 1♥. Last but not least, RHO introduced 2NT as a scrambling bid but wasn't willing to bid an immediate 2NT. RHO probably has a 3=1=4=5 or 3=1=5=4 which has some impact on partner's holdings.

If folks buy into this logic, the next question is what type of information do we want to communicate to partner.

1. We could attempt to improve on strain

2. We could provide additional information to partner that might provide useful if we were to end up defending a 4m contract.

3. We could have some elaborate scheme to accomplish both ends - 3♥ shows a heart raise that wants a club lead, 3♦ shows a heart raise and requests a diamond lead. 3♣ shows either a "normal" heart raise OR Spade tolerance. Opener can relay with 3♦ with Spade tolerance.

The third option seems elegent, but I'd never discuss this in advance, nor would I expect partner to read this at the table. I'm guessing that you're trying to improve on strain. I'd place you with a hand like the following

♠ KJTx
♥ Q962
♦ 92
♣ T65

[Trinidad]

Just my thoughts:

3♦ means that you are taking the push to 3♥ while at the same time sending a message about diamonds. What could the message be?

In my opinion, the situation is more or less equivalent to:

1♥-Pass-2♥-Pass
Pass-Dbl-3♦

And this situation is somewhat equivalent to:
2♥-Dbl-3♦

This last auction is played by many as a raise to 3♥ that wants a diamond lead. All these auctions have in common that you expect partner to be on lead if the opponents end up playing so directing a lead is important.

Since I am at work, I don't have time to go through a lot of hands, but my guess is that Fred held something like

---

Rik

[jdonn]

I'll guess you had a three or four card diamond holding to the king and weak clubs, and wanted your partner to downgrade for diamond shortness but upgrade for club shortness.

I'm equating it to the 'expert' treatment in an auction like
1♦ 1♠
1NT 2♥
3♣/♦
where you have a fit in another suit, an auction that usually doesn't lead to game but possibly could have game if the hands fit very well, and need to help partner evaluate between two off suits that you obviously aren't interested in playing in. For example I think Kx AQxx xxxx KQx is a perfect 3♣ bid in my example auction.

But from what I know about you Fred, if it turns out to be natural with Ax xxx QJT9xx xx I won't be surprised.

[gwnn]

empathetic splinter, 4 diamonds to the T or worse and short clubs and maximum (and 4 hearts to make the bid lawful perhaps). If it can be natural, it's natural. wtp?

AQxx
Qxxx
xxxx
x

[gnasher]

I don't have as much imagination as some posters, so I think it shows shortage, game interest, and therefore concentration in the majors. Four-card support and a singleton is (or should be) almost impossible in a single raise, so that makes you 3-1 in the reds. I'd guess that you'd respond 1♠ with a 5314 shape, so that makes it 4315.

A10xx QJx x xxxxx

[Vilgan]

edit> nevermind, will edit again when I find a board that fits.

Assuming like 4-5 spades, and a hand that didn't want to bid spades first until RHO showed the minors.. now willing to compete to 3♥ but show spades on the way.

[fred]

Vilgan, on Dec 16 2009, 07:08 PM, said:

http://www.acbl.org/assets/documents/play/...iego/71024m.pdf

board 10 possibly but seems unlikely that S would pass.

Sorry - that was not the board.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[gwnn]

can we do multiple guesses?

[pooltuna]

fred, on Dec 16 2009, 08:35 AM, said:

Partner opens 1H and you raise to 2H. This is passed around to your RHO who balances with 2NT (for minors).

You bid 3D. What does it mean?

I actually made this weird bid during the recent ACBL NABC in San Diego. The first person who can identify the specific hand with which I made this call, will be sent a free Bridge Base CD-ROM of their choice (there are about 30 choices the most of expensive of which sells for about $80).

Probably you would have to be a real masochist to even try to win this prize, but I thought the concept of a scavenger hunt like this might appeal to some (bored!) Forums contributors out there

I can tell you that the hand in question was computer-dealt so, in principle at least, it should be possible to find it. Knowing what I thought I was saying when I bid 3D will definitely be helpful in this regard. I will post my thoughts on 3D within the next couple of days.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

I assume you are playing constructive raises and consequently all meanings must be taken in that context. I also presume you are reasonably LOTT influenced and as a result hold 4♥. Therefore I am left with 3♦ possibly showing shortness, ♦ values, or possibly in an U/U way showing ♠ values. Overall I think the hand should have undergone positional improvement and that can come only from the minor suits. So I would expect something like

---

[pooltuna]

manudude03, on Dec 16 2009, 08:51 AM, said:

I'll take a guess at what it means. Maximum with diamond shortage (and as such has become a limit raise). Something like KTxx Axx x JTxxx.

I'll look for the right hand now .

IMO t his is already a limit raise and consequently has already bid 3♥

[pooltuna]

helene_t, on Dec 16 2009, 09:28 AM, said:

I think you hand has improved to an invite after the 2NT bid. You have no vastage in the minors.

I'll take you for void in diamonds and maybe xxxx in clubs. Or maybe Axxx. Could also be the other way round.

It could also be unusual vs unusual, i.e. you have 5-3 in the majors, just in case spades plays better than hearts. In fact you must have at least four spades if you want to compete over 3m.

My guess is something like Kxxxx-KJxx-()-xxxx

IMO this is already a limit raise