[Winstonm]

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How old is old enough for students to be approached by military recruiters?  High school? Junior high? Fourth grade? How about ten weeks into kindergarten?

Last week at the dinner table, my five-year-old son announced blithely, "Soldiers came to school today." He then added, "They only kill bad people. They don't kill good people."
He made the announcement with the same levity he uses in recalling the plot line of Frog and Toad or a Nemo video.

My wife and I looked at each other incredulously.
"Soldiers came to school? What do you mean?" I asked.

He repeated himself and then I remembered - it was "Career Day" at school. My son mentioned a bus driver too, but it was the soldier who stuck out in his mind. When my wife asked if the soldier was cool, he nodded yes.  The soldier had given my five-year-old a gift. From his yellow backpack, he produced a six-inch, white, plastic ruler with big, bold, red letters reading "ARMY NATIONAL GUARD" next to a waving American flag and below that  www.1-800-GO-GUARD.com.

Soldiers R Us

[barmar]

Calling this a "military recruitment" is nonsense.

If a a police officer showed up, and a kid asked him if he ever shot someone, wouldn't he probably give a very similar answer? Do you really expect 5-year-olds to be able to understand anything more than a simple explanation like that?

There must be thousands of families where a parent has to explain why they or another family member are leaving to go fight in a war to a young child. What do you think they tell them?

And while "they don't kill good people" may not be strictly true, it's the ideal we would like our soldiers to live up to. When innocents are killed, it's a tragic mistake, either in judgement or execution. But that's getting a bit deep for kindergarteners.

[Lobowolf]

Winstonm, on Nov 20 2009, 10:03 PM, said:

The new American Dream, sponsored by the Neocon - the glory of perpetual warfare for the honor of the fatherlan....er.....homeland.

LOL A National Guardsman participating at his son's kindergarden career day is military recruitment? This blog brought to you by the Neolib.

[Al_U_Card]

One of the many reasons why they separated religion from schools...that crazy "Thou shalt not kill" exhortation was getting in the way.

Did the soldier mention the horrors of war? Did he talk about all of the PTSD vets? Did he mention that the US security and it's defense is determined by economic profit incentives?

Not education so much as indoctrination.

[Winstonm]

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If a a police officer showed up, and a kid asked him if he ever shot someone, wouldn't he probably give a very similar answer? Do you really expect 5-year-olds to be able to understand anything more than a simple explanation like that

Policing and soldiering are not closely related. Policing is a career - joining the Army is an adventure.
As to answering the question, a policemen is most likely to say he never has shot anyone - as the vast majority of policemen have never had to fire their weapons in the line of duty.
And I wouldn't expect 5-year-olds to understand any explanation - but that is not justification for lying. Maybe a better argument for not being there in the first place?

[kenberg]

My ten year old grandson is growing up in an environment where it is very possible that he has never knowingly met a soldier or a cop. Or an auto mechanic or a truck driver either. I grew up across the street from a cop, next door to a soldier. Next door to the cop, the guy drove a truck, a couple of houses down, a machinist. When young, I played n the street and interacted with these guys. At my grandson's age, I would ride my bike down to the Ford plant and take the tour, watching the assembly, the glass blowing, and so on. I say let's hear it for career day. I am sorry that society is now so structured that it needs to be formalized rather than coming about naturally, but that's the way it is. No harm at all in expanding a child's knowledge of careers.


And Winston you would really like the teacher to tell the child "Your soldier father is not welcome here"? Really?

[Winstonm]

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And Winston you would really like the teacher to tell the child "Your soldier father is not welcome here"? Really?

First off, ANY career day is odd to me for kindergarten age. Second, if the school district did want a kindergarten career day and someone from the Army, I would expect an officer who would extol the virtues of education and downplay the war and killing aspects.

But mostly, I don't think the individual teacher should be in charge of who is or isn't allowed in the classroom.

And btw, the quote said, "Soldiers came to school today". Plural. This implies more than a father showing up for career day - but it may have been just that - who knows.

If a kid's father came for show-and-tell like day no problem. If the Army recruitment center sent a couple of poster kids it was weird.

[kenberg]

Kindergarten is not too young for learning that adults have careers but I agree that a sales pitch for ANY particular career would not be good.

I often feel that by the time I was seventeen or so I had an infinitely better idea of the adult work world than many young people do today. If you ask many college students why they are there you get something of a blank stare. Their parents sent them, someone told them to pick a major, there's plenty of beer. It was so much different for me. I know parents want to protect and guide their children but for me, I liked it my way. I chose college. My father had not been to high school and had no idea why anyone would go to college or what they did there. I chose mathematics. I considered the Navy after high school because I wasn't sure how I would pay for college but my hs math teacher (something of an oddball, as I was) arranged for a scholarship. At one point, working over the summer at a job I enjoyed, I considered dropping out (my father would have seen this as coming to my senses) but decided to stick with the math. Lots of choices, all my own.

I do believe in protecting kids, and I don't think they should be getting a sales pitch for any career. But some of these kids get to be twenty and have never said, "Dad, here is what I want to do with my life". When I was fourteen I thought maybe I would be a race car driver. A good age for that fantasy, when I was seventeen I was more practical.

Anyway, I would not favor having the Army in to do a presentation. Or the Ford Motor Company. Or the movie industry.


The world has changed. Kindergarten now goes for a full school day and the kids have homework. We used to go 9-12, we learned to take naps, color inside the lines, and to sit in a row without punching each other.

[Al_U_Card]

kenberg, on Nov 21 2009, 10:54 AM, said:

we learned to take naps, color inside the lines, and to sit in a row without punching each other.

...and as we get older these have become aspirations to maintain

My middle son has joined the reserve as a career opportunity. When I asked him about his chances of going to Afghanistan, he replied that he would be in the motor pool so hopefully all of the IEDs would have been exploded by the time he got there......(he has a cutting sense of humour but I was not amused)

Everyone has a path in life and they will follow it to where it leads.

[blackshoe]

Winstonm, on Nov 21 2009, 09:33 AM, said:

Second, if the school district did want a kindergarten career day and someone from the Army, I would expect an officer who would extol the virtues of education and downplay the war and killing aspects.

Kids don't get to choose whether their fathers are officers or enlisted men, nor whether they will "extol the virtues of education" or talk about their actual experiences. Neither, even where "career day" is concerned, do school districts.

[Winstonm]

blackshoe, on Nov 21 2009, 11:56 AM, said:

Winstonm, on Nov 21 2009, 09:33 AM, said:

Second, if the school district did want a kindergarten career day and someone from the Army, I would expect an officer who would extol the virtues of education and downplay the war and killing aspects.

Kids don't get to choose whether their fathers are officers or enlisted men, nor whether they will "extol the virtues of education" or talk about their actual experiences. Neither, even where "career day" is concerned, do school districts.

Perhaps you missed my point.

IF the school or school district asked someone from the Army to be there, then I would expect the Army not to send two privates to talk about killing bad guys.

Kids can't pick their fathers; school districts can determine appropriateness of individuals at a career day; I doubt the school district would allow a local drug dealer in to talk about risks-rewards of that lifestyle.

[Lobowolf]

Isn't kindergarten "Career Day" a volunteer parent thing? I sincerely doubt that the District Board of Directors voted on it, in any case. Too bad the blogger didn't participate; he might have had some interesting conversations with the military
guy(s).

Why no outrage about the bus driver? They're indoctrinating those kids into socialism! Treating it as perfectly acceptable to siphon tax money to pay for people who should be transporting themselves. Plus, it doesn't pay that well, and causes back problems. No college degree required, let alone a graduate degree. They're subtly encouraging children to devalue education.

[blackshoe]

I did not read this as school officials inviting specific people (or companies, or organizations or whatever) to come and talk about their lines of work. Rather, it seems to me the situation was that the school had a day in which students were invited to ask their parents to come in and talk about what they do.

If I were a parent, and my kid came home and said "we're having a career day, where we're supposed to invite parents to come in and talk about what they do, but I'm told I can't invite you because of what you do" there would be Hell to pay.

I seriously doubt John Gotti would go his kid's school and tell the class all about being a mobster. Nor, for that matter, would "a local drug dealer".

[Winstonm]

It is interesting that everyone seems to be putting his own spin on "career day" when no specifics were pointed out in the quote provided.

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and then I remembered - it was "Career Day" at school.

Fact is, we do not know who organized the event or whether guests were picked or invited to share their careers.

The only facts from the quote are these: 1) it was career day at school. 2)soldiers were there 3) a bus driver was there

[Lobowolf]

Winstonm, on Nov 21 2009, 02:47 PM, said:

It is interesting that everyone seems to be putting his own spin on "career day" when no specifics were pointed out in the quote provided.

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and then I remembered - it was "Career Day" at school.

Fact is, we do not know the specifics.

$100 to your favorite charity if it was a district decision to invite specific people to a kindergarten career day.

[Hanoi5]

We've lost that kid...

Next step: prohibit career day in schools unless parents know who's going and approve the speech. Next step is probably checking teacher's speeches/classes before giving them to the kids...

Don't get me wrong, I know parents should have a say at what goes on in their kids education but they should be as concerned about what they're teaching the kids themselves. If you talk to your kid and educate him/her well there shouldn't be any worry about what they hear outside as you would surely correct it ASAP.

[Winstonm]

Lobowolf, on Nov 21 2009, 02:54 PM, said:

Winstonm, on Nov 21 2009, 02:47 PM, said:

It is interesting that everyone seems to be putting his own spin on "career day" when no specifics were pointed out in the quote provided. 

Quote

and then I remembered - it was "Career Day" at school.

Fact is, we do not know the specifics.

$100 to your favorite charity if it was a district decision to invite specific people to a kindergarten career day.

In our neck of the woods, kindergarten is part of the elementary school system and as such is simply a part of an elementary school complex.

I doubt if there was any sort of kindergarten-only sponsored career day. Although we don't know, the most likely scenario is that the school had a career day in which the kindergarten along with many other ages participated, which most likely was a district-level decision.

[helene_t]

Agree with Hanoi.

Btw, it can only be a good thing if children are exposed to the perspectives of more different adults than just their parents and teachers. It should be no concern that some soldiers, bus drivers, drug dealers and other nasty people were allowed to talk to the kids for a few minutes (or hours, whatever).

[Winstonm]

It is a pretty sick society that glorifies war and advertises soldiering as a career path.

[Lobowolf]

Winstonm, on Nov 21 2009, 02:58 PM, said:

Lobowolf, on Nov 21 2009, 02:54 PM, said:

Winstonm, on Nov 21 2009, 02:47 PM, said:

It is interesting that everyone seems to be putting his own spin on "career day" when no specifics were pointed out in the quote provided. 

Quote

and then I remembered - it was "Career Day" at school.

Fact is, we do not know the specifics.

$100 to your favorite charity if it was a district decision to invite specific people to a kindergarten career day.

In our neck of the woods, kindergarten is part of the elementary school system and as such is simply a part of an elementary school complex.

I doubt if there was any sort of kindergarten-only sponsored career day. Although we don't know, the most likely scenario is that the school had a career day in which the kindergarten along with many other ages participated, which most likely was a district-level decision.

The decision to have a career day may have been district-made, or district-approved. In all probability, though, the district had nothing to do with who showed up to speak at Career Day. Kids were probably given flyers, or the teacher told the parents at conferences, and the parents were encouraged to show up and talk about their careers. Maybe friends of the teacher showed up, if volunteer turnout was low. The teacher probably didn't coordinate with the principal, let alone the district board. Download your favorite Board of Education agenda. Expenditures, explusions, firings, lawsuits...you're not going to find a school board discussing, let alone deciding as a public body, which specific individuals show up for Career Day.