[jdonn]

You have agreed with partner to play 'sandwich notrump' understood to mean a 1NT overcall after 1X P 1Y shows at least 4-5 or 5-4 in the other two suits and may be lighter than a takeout double. You are in second seat.

(1♣) P (1♦) 1NT
(P) 2♠ (P) 2NT

What would partner's auction mean if partner is
- Intermediate?
- Expert?

After you decide that, what would you do in each case, w/w at imps, holding (hidden)

Spoiler

9xxxx Kx Jx JT9x

? (ok you might not have bid 2♠ but here you are)

[quiddity]

No idea what this would mean from an expert partner. For the intermediate answer I'd guess a 4522 maximum - maybe 15-17 pts. I would just bid 3S though I can imagine missing games opposite some perfect 16 counts.

[gnasher]

The only meaning I can think of is a strong 4522. With 45(31) he'd probably bid his fragment; with five spades he'd just raise. I don't think it matters who my partner is - I always assume partner has done something sensible until I'm sure that he hasn't.

With the given hand I bid 4♠. I seem to have an exceptionally good hand.

Did partner look at all surprised when I alerted his 1NT overcall?

[mike777]

jdonn, on Sep 21 2009, 07:39 PM, said:

You have agreed with partner to play 'sandwich notrump' understood to mean a 1NT overcall after 1X P 1Y shows at least 4-5 or 5-4 in the other two suits and may be lighter than a takeout double. You are in second seat.

(1♣) P (1♦) 1NT
(P) 2♠ (P) 2NT

What would partner's auction mean if partner is
- Intermediate?
- Expert?

After you decide that, what would you do in each case, w/w at imps, holding (hidden)

Spoiler

9xxxx Kx Jx JT9x

? (ok you might not have bid 2♠ but here you are)

STep one....1nt denies an opening hand.....or close to an opening hand.......if sound....

All 1nt bids deny an opening hand in your style....


guys partner cannot have anything like 15-17 or close to it.....

partner cannot have 12 hcp...period......

On this hand i expect to just rebid 3nt very often...

[Codo]

Partner has a balanced (4522) invite, no matter whether he is Zia or Misses Guggelheimer.

I accept, I have a much better hand then promised. I must be quite a senior citizen to bid just 2 Spade with this powerhouse.

[eagle_one]

I reckon p is more extreme than 4-5/5-4 but I don't know why they're keeping quiet. More like 65. I'll accept and bid 4 although worried about entries to my own hand.

[gwnn]

Maybe an expert has difficulties accepting this agreement and he forgot about it, intending 2nt as "oh no partner I forgot). Of course, a given expert a priori should be better than an intermediate in all aspects of bridge, including remembering of system.

[andy_h]

Can 1NT contain stronger hands too? I'm just trying to understand what the difference between doubling and bidding 1NT with strong 4522s. Partner's skill level doesn't affect my decision so if 1NT can contain strong 4522s then I will bid 4♠. I doubt partner had forgotten the 1NT since it probably was their choice to play sandwich 1NT.

[benlessard]

With a strong 5-5 he will cue bid in a minor(not GF but more foward going than 3S). With a strong 5-4 he should have X and not bid 1Nt. To bid 1Nt with a strong (54)22 is pure nonsense.

So the only thing i see is that hes got a good 5-5 but hes got Kx in clubs to protect.

[CarlRitner]

I'm still stuck at DNE.

[quiddity]

Donn's No-trump Enigma?

[kenrexford]

I think "oops" makes the most sense.

That said, what logical sense does this make? Well, if we assume that 1NT was intended as a weak major takeout, then 2NT cannot cvhange that message -- weak with the majors. However, to justify bidding again, the message "weak" must have a different meaning, like "weak HCP but strong offensive strength."

With such a hand, you might typically bid 2NT, except that perhaps 2NT has a different meaning in this sequence. So, I would want to distinguish 2NT from 1NT...2NT by knowing wehat 2NT immediately would mean.

If we assume that 2NT would normally show something else, then 2NT now seems to be a delayed game try with extra length in the majors.

I don't buy the 5422 suggestion -- too weak. More like 6511. If we assume 6-5, then 3-bids in a minor would typically be shortness bids (bid the shortness or bid around the shortness, stylistically) and would be expected to be voids in this context (6520/6502/5620/5602). 3♥ would then typically handle 5611 and 3♠ 6511.

So, what is 2NT? I suppose 6-6, with 1-0 or 0-1 outside.

[ONEferBRID]

Since there are so many "Michaels bids" available, they could have different meanings.
Don't forget the 2C! here is Michaels ( whereas 2D would be natural ).

Is that why 1NT! ( Sandwich ) here shows a 5/4 ( either way ) whereas 2C! would show at least a 5/5 ?
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I'm assuming partner's 2NT rebid shows a strong hand, but I'm afraid your hand ( hidden) is not worth accepting the invite, so I'd just bid 3S.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
As an aside, standard is for 1NT by an unpassed hand is ( as it should be ) natural ( 16-18 ).... and I've been told that as of 2006, most experts that had "tried" unpassed 1NT as Sandwich have switched back to natural.
[ I don't know what the status is now ] .

[kenrexford]

ONEferBRID, on Sep 22 2009, 12:50 PM, said:

Since  there are so many "Michaels bids" available, they could have different meanings.
Don't forget the 2C! here is Michaels ( whereas 2D would be natural ).

Is that why 1NT! ( Sandwich ) here shows a 5/4 ( either way ) whereas 2C! would show at least a 5/5 ?
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I'm assuming partner's 2NT rebid shows a strong hand, but I'm afraid your hand ( hidden) is not worth accepting the invite, so I'd just bid 3S.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
As an aside, standard is for 1NT by an unpassed hand is ( as it should be ) natural ( 16-18 ).... and I've been told that as of 2006, most experts that had "tried" unpassed 1NT as Sandwich have switched back to natural.
[ I don't know what the status is now ] .

Not everyone plays 2♣ as Michaels here. I like 2♣ as natural, personally, when 1♣ can be short and 1♦ is often "waiting."

[gnasher]

kenrexford, on Sep 22 2009, 05:33 PM, said:

if we assume that 1NT was intended as a weak major takeout

Why would we assume that?

[gnasher]

benlessard, on Sep 22 2009, 03:45 PM, said:

With a strong 5-4 he should have X and not bid 1Nt. To bid 1Nt with a strong (54)22 is pure nonsense.

Why?

[ArtK78]

I don't understand the posters that suggest that 2NT shows 6511 or 6610. In that case, the 1NT bidder could have bid 2NT directly. Even when you play sandwich NT, a jump to 2NT is still for the unbid suits, but showing more distribution.

And, if you believe that is not the case, how do you play the sequence 1x - P - 1y - 2NT if 1NT was a sandwich NT?

[skjaeran]

The OP states the agreement as 54/45 in the unbid suits and may be lighter than a TOX.

From that it's clear to me that partner could also be stronger. (I've never played sandwich NT - natural is absolutely standard where I play.)

4522 and something like 15-17 hcp seems reasonable in this context.

I'm bidding 4♠.

[bid_em_up]

With an intermediate player, I would assume that 2N means they forgot about agreeing to play sandwich and they intended 1N as natural, and 2N is an attempt to resolve this error.

With an expert partner, I would expect the 2N bid to show longer minor than major (4-6?) and probably contains extra values.

However, since I will bid 4♠ in case #2, I think I am obligated to also bid 4♠ in the first case even if I suspect that passing 2N will turn out to be the winning action.

jmoo.

[barmar]

skaeran, on Sep 22 2009, 03:57 PM, said:

The OP states the agreement as 54/45 in the unbid suits and may be lighter than a TOX.

From that it's clear to me that partner could also be stronger.

I don't think that was how it was intended. Unfortunately, "may" is an ambiguous word.

I don't think they meant it in the sense of "might or might not be lighter than a TOX", but rather "can be used in cases where you're not strong enough to use a TOX". If you have a hand strong enough for a TOX, why wouldn't you use that?

I think most people's understanding of Sandwich 1NT is that it's used when you're bidding more on shape than strength, because you have two ways of showing your two-suiter. And when this is available, jumping to 2NT shows more shape.