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Couple Things Maybe

#1 User is offline   kfay 

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Posted 2008-May-02, 15:58

Scoring: MP


So the setting is it's matchpoints.

What are you opening?

I was playing with a partner who would open this 1♠ so I opened 1♠ even though I'm not a big fan.

1♠-2♦ (GF)

Now what? Maybe some of your aren't fans (don't know why but I had some dissenters in another recent thread of mine... albiet this hand has more shape) but it continued:

3♣-3♥
3NT-4NT

What range do you expect from partner? What do you bid?
Kevin Fay
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#2 User is offline   kfay 

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Posted 2008-May-02, 16:02

Scoring: MP

1♠-2♦
3♣-3♥
3NT-4NT
6♣


Maybe you don't agree with the bidding up to this point but it's what my partner bid. What now? It's MPs.
Kevin Fay
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#3 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2008-May-02, 16:21

1) This is why opening 1S is so terrible. You have no rebid over anything, competitive auctions are bad, etc. Opening 1C must be clear cut with 5S and 6C.

2) Yes I guess you have to bid 3C even though your hand is not worth it. It is absurd to rebid 2S and never bid your six card club suit.

3) I would never have bid 3N. Partner's 3H is not looking for a heart fit after you have denied 4 hearts, it is expressing doubt about a 3N contract. If he has doubt, I know I do!

4) Over 3C, 4N by partner should be quantitative for sure. Probably once you bid 3N over 3H partner was no longer worried about his weak heart holding (reason he didn't bid 4N before). Qx Axx KQJxx Axx would be a very reasonable hand for partner to have (since 3C showed extras). More likely though is that your partner didn't know 4N over 3C would have been quantitative.

5) I would just shoot out 6C now because this is a huge mess and I can see 4N going down so might as well hope to catch well in 6C.
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#4 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2008-May-02, 16:23

kfay, on May 2 2008, 05:02 PM, said:

Scoring: MP

1♠-2♦
3♣-3♥
3NT-4NT
6♣


Maybe you don't agree with the bidding up to this point but it's what my partner bid. What now? It's MPs.

I have never legitimately abstained but this was just too much of a travesty to even try to answer this. This is the worst bidding I have ever seen.

1) 2D was wrong, 2C is cheaper and less of a statement about clubs.
2) 3H is bad, why not just raise clubs and then bid keycard? This is so easy.
3) 4N is LOL bad. STILL NOT RAISING CLUBS????? AND JUST INVITING SLAM??? Certainly this is the easiest 4C bid ever? I guess this person thought 4C would be GERBER.
4) How can you do anything other than pass now?
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#5 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2008-May-02, 16:32

Last time I opened 1♠ with five spades and six clubs, my partner rebid 2♦, and I had a total minimum so I made the absurd (agreed Justin hehe) rebid of 2♠. Partner rebid 3♣! so I obviously raised, and we played 5♣ from his side, down on the heart queen lead through my Kx and the ace of spades, whereas if played from my side partner had diamond tricks for heart discards. This was the very last hand of the national swiss team at the end of the Nashville NABC, and if 5♣ had made we would have come in second, my best finish ever in a national event. Instead we were sixth.

So thanks a lot Kevin for bringing back the painful memories. :)
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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#6 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2008-May-02, 16:46

Ugh, I disagree with almost every call made. 3H and 4NT must be the worst calls, how can you not raise clubs? That's really terrible.

Of course I don't like 1S either, not at all in fact, but the other player bid far worse. Even given the 1S opening, look how easy it would have been if responder had just raised clubs immediately and then (after partner cues) asked for keycards.

Yes 2D was wrong too. Basically 3C and 6C are the only calls that I don't have an issue with.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#7 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2008-May-02, 17:41

han, on May 2 2008, 05:46 PM, said:

Ugh, I disagree with almost every call made.

fyp!
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#8 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2008-May-02, 18:56

The 1S opening is fine and has not caused any problems at all. Over 2D you bid 2S of course, not the ridiculous overbid of 3C. However why diod your partner bid 2D and anot 2C?
If she bids 2C you have the easy C raise leading to an easy C slam. Don't blame the opening, blame the turkey sitting on the other side.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#9 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2008-May-02, 18:57

You think that opening 1S and rebidding 2S with Kxxxx of spades and KJTxxx of clubs is a good way to bid? I'm stunned.
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#10 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2008-May-02, 18:59

If you open 1S and pd bids a 2/1 you are forced to rebid 2S with a minimum. I am not going to show a strong hand with a 3C bid.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#11 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2008-May-02, 19:47

The_Hog, on May 2 2008, 07:59 PM, said:

If you open 1S and pd bids a 2/1 you are forced to rebid 2S with a minimum. I am not going to show a strong hand with a 3C bid.

I agree that opening 1S and then overbidding with 3C is very undesirable. I also think that opening 1S and bidding 2S is very undesirable. To me this is one (of many) very good reason to open 1C.
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#12 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2008-May-02, 20:33

I agree with Justin's utter shock at this auction. I'll toss in a few observations myself.

===================================================

Starting with Responder. He held ♠J ♥AQJx ♦KQ10x ♣AQxx.

I agree 100% with Justin that 2♣ is much better than 2♦. I would add more, though, as reasons why I think this:

1. As Justin said, 2♣ is less trustworthy.
2. With three of the top five honors, fourth, in each of the red suits, you will be well-placed to captain this thing if you get partner to bid a red suit first. Bidding clubs yourself induces that.
3. When in doubt, bid the minor that is lacking a lower honor rather than a higher honor. Finding the diamond Ace is usually easy (Blackwood does that), whereas finding the club King is less so. Since you want a cue (if cues start sometime) in clubs to show the King and not shortness, respond clubs and establish this forever as your first shown suit. That helps, trust me.
4. The lower your start, the more options for partner with difficult hands.

On this hand, bidding 2♣ would allow Opener to bid 3♣ and focus the right suit immediately. That would be good. If Opener had held a similar hand, but with a red suit as his second suit, he would bid it, and a raise by Responder would again focus the right suit.

As to the 3♥ call. I think that 3♥ is fine, so long as you intend to clarify that this actually is an advance cue later. Thus, 3♥, and then 4♣ after 3NT, would be fine. I don't agree totally with Justin on that point.

As to 4NT. That's sick, unless (God help us...) 4♣ would be Gerber, as Justin said, and therefore 4NT shows clubs. Set trumps. Don't ruin the advance cue by muddying the reasoning. Advance cues only work if your next call explains what you were up to.

I agree to pass 6♣, like Justin said.

====================================================

Now to Opener.

I wildly prefer 1♣, for the reasons stated. I also agree with the aftermath decisionsand analyses by Justin.

===================================================

Sane auction?

1♣-1♥
1♠-2♦(GF)
2♠-3♣
3♦(control)-3♥(control)
4♦(not two top spades, not two top clubs, A diamonds, not hopeless)-4♥(RKCB)
answer-6♣
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."

-P.J. Painter.
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#13 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2008-May-02, 22:05

kenrexford, on May 2 2008, 09:33 PM, said:

I agree with Justin's utter shock at this auction.  I'll toss in a few observations myself.

===================================================

Starting with Responder.  He held ♠J ♥AQJx ♦KQ10x ♣AQxx.

I agree 100% with Justin that 2♣ is much better than 2♦.  I would add more, though, as reasons why I think this:

1. As Justin said, 2♣ is less trustworthy.
2. With three of the top five honors, fourth, in each of the red suits, you will be well-placed to captain this thing if you get partner to bid a red suit first.  Bidding clubs yourself induces that.
3. When in doubt, bid the minor that is lacking a lower honor rather than a higher honor.  Finding the diamond Ace is usually easy (Blackwood does that), whereas finding the club King is less so.  Since you want a cue (if cues start sometime) in clubs to show the King and not shortness, respond clubs and establish this forever as your first shown suit.  That helps, trust me.
4. The lower your start, the more options for partner with difficult hands.

On this hand, bidding 2♣ would allow Opener to bid 3♣ and focus the right suit immediately.  That would be good.  If Opener had held a similar hand, but with a red suit as his second suit, he would bid it, and a raise by Responder would again focus the right suit.

As to the 3♥ call.  I think that 3♥ is fine, so long as you intend to clarify that this actually is an advance cue later.  Thus, 3♥, and then 4♣ after 3NT, would be fine.  I don't agree totally with Justin on that point.

As to 4NT.  That's sick, unless (God help us...) 4♣ would be Gerber, as Justin said, and therefore 4NT shows clubs.  Set trumps.  Don't ruin the advance cue by muddying the reasoning.  Advance cues only work if your next call explains what you were up to.

I agree to pass 6♣, like Justin said.

====================================================

Now to Opener.

I wildly prefer 1♣, for the reasons stated.  I also agree with the aftermath decisionsand analyses by Justin.

===================================================

Sane auction?

1♣-1♥
1♠-2♦(GF)
2♠-3♣
3♦(control)-3♥(control)
4♦(not two top spades, not two top clubs, A diamonds, not hopeless)-4♥(RKCB)
answer-6♣

God said:

3. Do not vainly use the name of your God.

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#14 User is offline   Rossoneri 

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Posted 2008-May-03, 00:40

1♠ isn't that much an issue for me...but responder's bidding was just plain horrible....forgive me for saying this, but the bidding wouldn't be out of place in the beginner's tournament I was helping to officiate on Thursday...
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Unless explicitly stated, none of my views here can be taken to represent SCBA or any other organizations.
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#15 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2008-May-03, 01:30

Again, 100% agree with hog :)

1♠ is fine and 2♠ is DA re-bid with opener's hand. 2♦ by responder is not common but it wasn't the source of trouble.
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#16 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2008-May-03, 02:49

Hi,

tell your partner that there are reasons, why certain
things are taught in first class.

#1 Opening your longest suit will help showing the
correct length of the suits.
#2 If you hold two 4 card suit as responder.
bid the cheaper one
#3 Setting trumps early simplifies the later auction.
#4 It does not matter, if you could have survived
certain bids on a given pair of hands.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#17 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2008-May-03, 03:04

kfay, on May 2 2008, 05:02 PM, said:

<snip>

Maybe you don't agree with the bidding up to this point but it's what my partner bid.  What now?  It's MPs.

In a German forum, the last question you are asked is termed
"Skinhead Inn" question.

The "Skinhead Inn" question relates to the following situation:

P1: Assume you are black and visit a well known Skinhead Inn.
P2: I never would do this.
P1: Never mind. Assume further you go to the bar, pushing a tall
heavy weihgt baldheaded guy to the side
... By the way did I say you are small and tiny?
P2: I am turning and run as fast as you can to the door.
P1: No, you stay, and as the big guy glares at you, you shout so
loud that everyone is hearing you <<Shut up, you son of a
white ... >>.
P2: Are you deaf? Did you not hear me, I am leaving as fast as
I can.
P1: No you cant, the other guys have moved and build a circle around
you and the big guy next to you reaches for his bat. What do you do?

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#18 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2008-May-03, 03:43

P_Marlowe, on May 3 2008, 04:04 PM, said:

kfay, on May 2 2008, 05:02 PM, said:

<snip>

Maybe you don't agree with the bidding up to this point but it's what my partner bid.  What now?  It's MPs.

In a German forum, the last question you are asked is termed
"Skinhead Inn" question.

The "Skinhead Inn" question relates to the following situation:

P1: Assume you are black and visit a well known Skinhead Inn.
P2: I never would do this.
P1: Never mind. Assume further you go to the bar, pushing a tall
heavy weihgt baldheaded guy to the side
... By the way did I say you are small and tiny?
P2: I am turning and run as fast as you can to the door.
P1: No, you stay, and as the big guy glares at you, you shout so
loud that everyone is hearing you <<Shut up, you son of a
white ... >>.
P2: Are you deaf? Did you not hear me, I am leaving as fast as
I can.
P1: No you cant, the other guys have moved and build a circle around
you and the big guy next to you reaches for his bat. What do you do?

With kind regards
Marlowe

If the little black guy is a version of bruce lee then I am content.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#19 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2008-May-03, 04:07

The_Hog, on May 3 2008, 04:43 AM, said:

P_Marlowe, on May 3 2008, 04:04 PM, said:

kfay, on May 2 2008, 05:02 PM, said:

<snip>

Maybe you don't agree with the bidding up to this point but it's what my partner bid.  What now?  It's MPs.

In a German forum, the last question you are asked is termed
"Skinhead Inn" question.

The "Skinhead Inn" question relates to the following situation:

P1: Assume you are black and visit a well known Skinhead Inn.
P2: I never would do this.
P1: Never mind. Assume further you go to the bar, pushing a tall
heavy weihgt baldheaded guy to the side
... By the way did I say you are small and tiny?
P2: I am turning and run as fast as you can to the door.
P1: No, you stay, and as the big guy glares at you, you shout so
loud that everyone is hearing you <<Shut up, you son of a
white ... >>.
P2: Are you deaf? Did you not hear me, I am leaving as fast as
I can.
P1: No you cant, the other guys have moved and build a circle around
you and the big guy next to you reaches for his bat. What do you do?

With kind regards
Marlowe

If the little black guy is a version of bruce lee then I am content.

chuck norris ftw
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#20 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2008-May-03, 04:13

Jlall, on May 2 2008, 11:05 PM, said:

God said:

3. Do not vainly use the name of your God.

I feel dirty now.
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."

-P.J. Painter.
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