[han]

FrancesHinden, on Jan 29 2008, 06:06 PM, said:

Jlall, on Jan 30 2008, 12:03 AM, said:

tbh I'm not clear at all what doubles mean when they do this kind of stuff because...well they never do this. I guess on general meta rules it is a takeout/cards double, but if I wasn't confident partner would interpret this way (because "they are so retarded for bidding this way that I want to penalty X them) seems reasonable" then I would just bid 3N.

Under our meta rules double is penalties (opener has defined their hand).

I know many friends of mine in the Netherlands use a rule like this, but it has never been really clear to me what "defined their hand" means. Is two calls enough? Or does it need to be a bid that limits the strength of their hand more precisely? What about shape? What about NT openers, or is this a special category that you discuss explicitly?

I also intended my double as cards/competitively, not because I'm confident that that is the best agreement but because that is the agreement I have. I would also double with KJxxx xx Kxxx Jx.

[jtfanclub]

gwnn, on Jan 30 2008, 09:10 AM, said:

The only possible explanation is that they "psyched" their pass, trying to induce a double, no?

Why couldn't they have a 3433 16 count with no club stop?

I mean, I know Jlall would X with that (I think), but most people don't have a good bid for that.

[han]

jtfanclub, on Jan 30 2008, 12:00 PM, said:

gwnn, on Jan 30 2008, 09:10 AM, said:

The only possible explanation is that they "psyched" their pass, trying to induce a double, no?

Why couldn't they have a 3433 16 count with no club stop?

I mean, I know Jlall would X with that (I think), but most people don't have a good bid for that.

Ah, so they pass and then bid 2H, makes sense.

[mikeh]

Most of the doublers seem to think that RHO is certifiable, and that our only problem is maximizing the good result we have coming.

While I am not someone who bids like RHO, my belief is that either he is an idiot or he has a hand such as xx J9xxxx x AQxx, where he felt unable, in his style, to overcall 1 or 2♥, and the bidding has told him that he has a reasonable chance of buying sufficient heart length in dummy to make a heart contract a reasonable ploy... either at this level or, if he is lucky, as a save should he catch 4 card support.

If you accept that RHO could well hold long weak hearts with good clubs, then double becomes fraught with peril, while 3N becomes a dangerous overbid. Imagine partner with Kx xx KQx KJ10xxx.

Had RHO passed, I probably would have overbid mildly via 3N. I think the hand is worth about 2.7 NT, but fractional bids are discouraged in most forms of the game

As it is, armed with an inference from the auction, and noting that we are white, I will swing low and bid 2N. This may wrongside the contract if partner has Kx AND RHO has the heart Ace, but I don't think that that layout is probable... if I had to bet, I'd bet that RHO has NO top heart at all. This is why I don't bid 3♥, which, at the cost of being a mild overbid, might seem to offer a positional advantage.

[FrancesHinden]

Hannie, on Jan 30 2008, 05:31 PM, said:

FrancesHinden, on Jan 29 2008, 06:06 PM, said:

Jlall, on Jan 30 2008, 12:03 AM, said:

tbh I'm not clear at all what doubles mean when they do this kind of stuff because...well they never do this. I guess on general meta rules it is a takeout/cards double, but if I wasn't confident partner would interpret this way (because "they are so retarded for bidding this way that I want to penalty X them) seems reasonable" then I would just bid 3N.

Under our meta rules double is penalties (opener has defined their hand).

I know many friends of mine in the Netherlands use a rule like this, but it has never been really clear to me what "defined their hand" means. Is two calls enough? Or does it need to be a bid that limits the strength of their hand more precisely? What about shape? What about NT openers, or is this a special category that you discuss explicitly?

I also intended my double as cards/competitively, not because I'm confident that that is the best agreement but because that is the agreement I have. I would also double with KJxxx xx Kxxx Jx.

By the way, I'm not actually a doubler on this hand - I've said clearly that I think double is for penalties, and I don't really have a penalty double.

We have had fairly detailed discussions on what 'defend their hand' means. The short version is that opener defines his hand by:

- opening with any pre-empt*
- opening with one of a suit, hearing a value-showing call from partner and making any rebid [i.e. not including a pass or double by opener]

Double is penalties by opener when responder has defined their hand by:
- raising opener's suit (forcing or non-forcing)
- making a rebid (e.g. 1D 1H 1S 2H P P 2S now doubles are penalties)

Double is penalties by both opener and responder
- after an explicitly game forcing from strength auction has been established
- after both sides have made a positive bid and then tried to pass out the final contract

There are special rules for NT openers, but these are related to understanding when partner has shown values, as we can respond to 1NT with a 0-count and pass with an 8-count.

*there are some specific rules for the multi