[whereagles]

Matchpoints, all vuln, intermediate field, expert pard.

♠ AJ2
♥ 9
♦ AKQT42
♣ K97

You pard
1♦ ... 1♥
2NT* 3♥
3NT 4NT

2NT = good diamond suit, 18-20 hcp, game forcing
3♥ = natural, 5+ cards.

Note: pard could have supported diamonds either with a direct 3/4♦ over 2NT, or 4♦ over 3NT. He might have also bid 4♥ over 3NT, natural forcing. Black suit bids over 2NT would have been natural and 4♣ over 3NT would be muddy. Questions:

1. Agree that 4♥ over 3NT would have been natural forcing?

2. How would you interpret 4NT?

3. What do you bid now? (In light of your interpretation of 4NT, of course.)

[Codo]

1. This is the key question. IF 4 Heart was forcing, 4 NT is surely non forcing and invitational. 4 Heart SHOULD be forcing, because with a 6 card Heart suit an no interesst in anything he could have bid 4 Heart one round earlier.

2. Invitational to 6. 4 Diamond is KC for diamond, so no need for 4 NT to be RCKB.

3. In the light of showing 18-20 hcps my 17 look like Min, so I pass.

[FrancesHinden]

1. No. Game bids are to play unless we have previously agreed otherwise.

2. Natural invitational

3. Pass. Short hearts and minimum HCP.

[Halo]

4H to play.

4NT natural and invitational.

6NT accept.

Maybe partner is saying that Hearts is all he has, but AKQJxx.

[helene_t]

Agree with Frances, but if 4♥ over 3NT would be NF you need some other way of forcing with long hearts. Maybe 4♣ over 3N would be a cue for hearts, assuming that with real clubs I would have bid 3♣ over 2N (or 4♣ if 3♣ would be conventional).

[P_Marlowe]

#1 no, 4H is to play, just showing a good 6 card suit
most likely you play 3C over 2NT as NMF
#2 quantitative
#3 Pass

With kind regards
Marlowe

[hrothgar]

I think that its pointless to survey the forums about what 4♥ should mean. You're playing highly non standard methods. You shouldn't expect us to be able to guess the right systemic definitions or the associated nuances with different auctions.

Its clear that you need to sort out a number of different hand types with 5+ Hearts:

1. Hands with 5 Hearts that need to determine the best strain
2. Hands with long hearts that are interested in playing 4♥ rather than 3N
3. Hands with strong self sufficient Heart suits that are interested in exploring slam
4. Hands with 5 Hearts and a Diamond fragment

I have no idea which of these hands would have responded 2♥ over 1♦
I have no idea which of these hands would have responded 3♣ over 2NT
I have no idea which of these hands would have responded 4♥ over 2NT

What I do know is that what your agreements with partner matter a hell of a lot more than my random guesses based on incomplete information about your methods.

[Codo]

I do agree that "game bids are to play" is often true- but not always.

Which hand will bid:
1 ♦ 1 ♥
2 NT 3 ♥
3 NT 4 ♥?

Pd showed you a gf with Diamondswith exactly 18-20 HCPS.
YOu say: I have 5+ Hearts.
He bids 3 NT: Sorry, No 3 card fit.
You: Okay I don´t care, I still want to play Heart.

If you want to play exactly 4 HEarts opposite a hand with 18-20 HCPS and long diamonds, even opposite a misfit why don´t you bid 4 Heart after 2 NT?

Where is the sense in asking pd about his heart support and when he say: I have none say: Okay, then we still play Hearts and not NT.

[brianshark]

Maybe if he had some hearts, and hence found a cue-bid, then slam is on, but without a heart fit, game is the limit.

[mikeh]

hrothgar, on Jan 25 2008, 09:04 AM, said:

I think that its pointless to survey the forums about what 4♥ should mean.  You're playing highly non standard methods.  You shouldn't expect us to be able to guess the right systemic definitions or the associated nuances with different auctions.

I basically agree with Frances about what I would assume the bids mean, but I also agree 100% with the above.

[skjaeran]

Codo, on Jan 25 2008, 04:18 PM, said:

I do agree that "game bids are to play" is often true- but not always.

Which hand will bid:
1 ♦ 1 ♥
2 NT 3 ♥
3 NT 4 ♥?

Pd showed you a gf with Diamondswith exactly 18-20 HCPS.
YOu say: I have 5+ Hearts.
He bids 3 NT: Sorry, No 3 card fit.
You: Okay I don´t care, I still want to play Heart.

If you want to play exactly 4 HEarts opposite a hand with 18-20 HCPS and long diamonds, even opposite a misfit why don´t you bid 4 Heart after 2 NT?

Where is the sense in asking pd about his heart support and when he say: I have none say: Okay, then we still play Hearts and not NT.

Huh? If you're going to play in hearts all the time, but are looking for a slam only if partner's got some support, you'd bid like this.

If you're still looking for a slam in hearts over 3NT you bid 4♣.

I'm in absolute agreement with Frances here.

[han]

Agree with Richard but also agree with the rest that you would have a really hard time convincing me that 4H should be forcing. No it shouldn't!

In either case 4NT seems clear as quantitative.

[Fluffy]

clear quantitative and clear pass.

[whereagles]

Richard, you basically know the same as I do. Me and pard agreed to bid those pesky 18-20 1-suited hands with the 2NT rebid. That's as far as our agreements go. If these "highly non-standard methods" cause you confusion, just imagine opener rebid 3♦ instead. (The only thing that would change is the hand is a clear accept if you take 4NT as an invite.)

[jdonn]

whereagles, on Jan 25 2008, 02:40 PM, said:

Me and pard agreed to bid those pesky 18-20 1-suited hands with the 2NT rebid. That's as far as our agreements go.

I think I have discovered the problem.

[whereagles]

jdonn, on Jan 25 2008, 09:00 PM, said:

whereagles, on Jan 25 2008, 02:40 PM, said:

Me and pard agreed to bid those pesky 18-20 1-suited hands with the 2NT rebid. That's as far as our agreements go.

I think I have discovered the problem.

dont be silly

[Halo]

So many of these posts we rabbit away and never find out what the hand was.

I want to know if I made my 6NT.

[the hog]

Why don't you add the following structure to your system Nuno?

1♦ 1♠
2N GF, no side suit (if long •, not necessarily balanced)
3C relay
3D 6+D, does not deny 3M
3M 3-cards, 5332
3oM singleton
3N 533-2M


1♦ 1M
2N 3D encouraging, D fit (3M = cue, 4• = minorwood)
3M 6+ suit
4M 6+ 1-loser suit, nothing special on the side
JS splinter for D

[whereagles]

Halo, on Jan 26 2008, 12:25 AM, said:

I want to know if I made my 6NT.

I'll give you something better than an answer to that in a couple hours