[kenberg]

Not for the first time I observed the following auction:
1S pass 1N(forcing) pass
2S X

Doubler was lucky. His partner firstly held four spades so he had no trouble figuring it as TO, and he (doubler's partner) also held five hearts. The result was 3HX down one.

What sort of hand could possibly justify passing 1S but doubling 2S for take-out when no fit by the opponents has been established and partner could be nearly broke? If 2S is followed by two passes there could still be a balance. Why force the issue? It seems to me that if this auction exists at all it should be a freak hand where doubler has a spade stack and the rest of the deck in high cards.


I am interested in who thinks it's clear this is TO and what sort of hand would be expected. It's not like this is the first time I have seen this auction, but I just don't understand it.

[goodwintr]

It used to be a penalty double, on the sort of hand that doubled in the sequence 1S-P-1NT-P; P-Dbl. That double used to show a spade stack and suggest leading spades against 1NT doubled. These days, I've seen players double 1NT for takeout in this auction, just like Ken has seen players double 2S for takeout in the similar auction 1S-P-1NT-P; 2S-Dbl. Perhaps it is all part of the modern tendency away from penalty and toward takeout doubles.

TLG

[mhais]

pd may have 4 cards s then it is penalty otherwise 3hx down is ok ur decision

[BillHiggin]

To me, this sequence clearly shows a trap pass of 1S and is now a penalty double.
I agree with Ken that take-out does not make sense here (but the trap pass is a real possibility).

[Trinidad]

There are different situations where a double can be a balancing double. The obvious situation is when you are about to pass out the hand. If you extend this principle just a little bid, you also use it for situations where it is likely that the opponents will not bid again. A clear example is:

1NT-Pass-2♠ (natural, sign off)

You do not expect opener to make another bid.

In such a situation, if you feel that they are in the right contract, you need to Balance in Direct Seat. You typically feel that they are in the right contract when you are short in their suit.

The situation that you give (1♠-Pass-1NT-Pass; 2♠) is not as clear as my example. However, in 90% or more of the cases the 2♠ bid will be passed out. (That is also true if 1NT was forcing.) Furthermore, it is rarely right to double an opponent at the two level for penalties when he has shown a six card or longer suit.

Therefore, this is a Balance In Direct Seat situation. For some players that would only be true after discussion. For others, this would be part of "Bridge logic".

Rik

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

TO, and I would say, it is some kind of prebal.
The hand with the spade shortage has to act,
but he may be to weak, for a direct TO.
He may also hold only hearts + minor, assuming
2NT as scrambling.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Apollo81]

This is a penalty double. Partner may be able to tell that it was not intended as such if he holds spade length.

[goodwintr]

Those last two comments imply that this double is the dreaded "two-way double" -- either it is penalty or it is takeout, and partner looks at his hand to determine which. There are some amusing stories about this sort of double, which occur when the doubler's partner couldn't tell (e.g., the opponents have a ten-card fit and the defender's have a singleton and a doubleton). Wheee!

TLG

[jdonn]

I think what they are saying is it SHOULD be a penalty double, but that if you have spade length you can tell partner mistakenly made a takeout double and should act accordingly.

[SoTired]

Passing a suit and then dbling next time is Classic Penalty Dbl. But if you have 4♠, then I guess not.

[kenberg]

I was worried that I was the only nut who thought this, on its face, is penalty rather than TO. I seem to be in decent company although there are responsible voices on the TO side. The idea, briefly mentioned by Marlowe, that it could be an offshape double, had occurred to me. By agreement it could be something like four hearts and a six card minor. That makes some sense to me but using it as a general TO, on a hand too weak to make a TO the first time, seems destined to create more action than I will want. If I need partner to hold five hearts for us to get out with down 1 this doesn't sound like a good idea on a partscore hand. On the auction there is no strong reason for confidence that we even have an eight card fit somewhere.

[inquiry]

I play this as penalty if not discussed. Having said that, I did a short (non-conclusive) bridgebrowser search and found the slight majority of hands that make this double have to be classified (looking at the hand doing the double) as a weak takeout. This is probably due to the fact that there are much more hands with a weak takeout shape than their are penalty double holding, so the majority of players probably play this as penalty (based on many, many more pass with the weak takeout hand than actually double with those hands).

[skjaeran]

To me this is clearly a penalty double, in theory.

Why should I want to make a weak t/o here? Opps haven't found a fit. We'll probably have misfitting hands.

I agree with Ben that I'll be having a weak t/o in this postition far more often than a penalty double. But I'd very seldom be very keen to enter the auction with the weak t/o. With the penalty double OTOH, I'd be very unhappy to have to pass.

But I'm not against playing it two-way. Partner will be able to tell which hand type I've got. So if i REALLY want to bid with a weak t/o, I'd double. That's not gonna happen very often, though.

[barmar]

How do you know the opponents don't have a fit? If your spades are short, there's a good chance the NT bidder has 2 of them. And since it was a forcing NT, he could even have 3, planning on making a delayed jump raise to show a limit raise.

Opener didn't jump rebid, so there's a decent chance that the points are evenly distributed. Partner needs to know that you have some values -- if he's sitting over opener with 4-5 ♠ he may want to convert the double.

[pclayton]

jdonn, on Apr 1 2007, 03:03 PM, said:

I think what they are saying is it SHOULD be a penalty double, but that if you have spade length you can tell partner mistakenly made a takeout double and should act accordingly.

These doubles rear their heads more than you might think.

My teammates the other night perpetrated:

(1♣) - double - (1♥) - 1♠
(2♣) - pass - (2♥) - double.

Takeout? Action? Penalty? (Personally I think its action). The doubler left it in with some non-descript 3=3=5=2. -570