[awm]

In general when do we want to be in a competitive auction? Usually there are three situations:

(1) We have a decent long suit. Introducing this suit can help to compete for a partscore, help partner find a lead, or preempt the opponents without serious risks of being penalized.

(2) We have a shapely hand, typically with two long suits. These hands often have substantial trick-taking potential (even without many points) provided we can find a good fit. Introducing one or (preferably) both suits can help partner judge whether to compete or bid game.

(3) We have a really strong hand. By showing our values, we can eventually penalize the opponents if they persist in competing. Otherwise we can help partner judge a partial or possible game.

Note that a "weakish balanced hand" doesn't really come into the picture here. Most of us would not normally consider bidding on a flat 12-13 point hand if the opponents opened a minor (yes there are sometimes exceptions for hands with support for both majors). So why attempt to bid on these hands if the opponents open a weak notrump, where their strength/shape is much better defined and opener's partner can usually make the right decision?

Given the three types of hand where we want to bid, the major issue is that a 1NT call takes up a lot more of our space than (say) a 1♣ opening, and we don't necessarily have the bids available to show all the possible hands at a reasonable level. Personally I don't like giving up a bid on hand type (3) over a weakish 1NT opening, since even though it's less frequent than the first two types it is perhaps the most likely to produce a game (or a juicy penalty). If you're going to bid on hand (3) your bid should be double.

[glen]

awm, on Mar 6 2007, 06:30 PM, said:

(1) We have a decent long suit...
(2) We have a shapely hand, typically with two long suits...
(3) We have a really strong hand...

If the opponents open one-of-a-suit, we compete on more than just these three types, and for good reasons.

[gwnn]

If penalty X were so useless, why do weak NT players well thought-out structures over it?

Of course X needs to be penalty.

[hrothgar]

officeglen, on Mar 7 2007, 02:35 AM, said:

awm, on Mar 6 2007, 06:30 PM, said:

(1) We have a decent long suit...
(2) We have a shapely hand, typically with two long suits...
(3) We have a really strong hand...

If the opponents open one-of-a-suit, we compete on more than just these three types, and for good reasons.

This is certainly true, however, I think that the reason is based on available bidding space

[pbleighton]

Richard:

Playing Lionel against a weak NT:

What do you do with 16+ flat, 4441, or single-suited minor hands?

On Gerben's page he describes X as either spades and another or a very strong hand. Are the other bids capped?

What do you do after X with some clubs?

How strong do you have to be to X, and how strong to leave an X in with a misfit?

Peter

[hrothgar]

awm, on Mar 7 2007, 02:30 AM, said:

Note that a "weakish balanced hand" doesn't really come into the picture here. Most of us would not normally consider bidding on a flat 12-13 point hand if the opponents opened a minor (yes there are sometimes exceptions for hands with support for both majors). So why attempt to bid on these hands if the opponents open a weak notrump, where their strength/shape is much better defined and opener's partner can usually make the right decision?

Note the use of the word "most"

I'm perfectly happy opening 1♠ on a hand like

♠ KJT3
♥ A4
♦ KJ93
♣ 983

Holding the same hand, I'd overcall 1♠ over a 1♣ opening.

Playing Lionel, I'd double a 1NT opening to show a two suited hand with Spades...

[awm]

officeglen, on Mar 6 2007, 06:35 PM, said:

awm, on Mar 6 2007, 06:30 PM, said:

(1) We have a decent long suit...
(2) We have a shapely hand, typically with two long suits...
(3) We have a really strong hand...

If the opponents open one-of-a-suit, we compete on more than just these three types, and for good reasons.

Really? So which hands generally bid over 1♣ which do not include any of:

(1) 15+ points
(2) A five-plus card suit better than Jxxxx
(3) Two five card suits
(4) 4-4 or better in the majors

I suppose there are some hands with lousy five card suits and close to (but not quite) 15 points that would bid (like xxxxx KQx AJx Kx is a 1♠ overcall). But unless you're overcalling a lot of four card suits on lousy balanced hands (which is far from standard) or lots of five-small suits on less than opening values (also probably non-standard) this seems fairly accurate. And if you have to bid at the two-level (say over a 1♠ opening) these hands with 12-14 points and lousy five card suits usually become passes (and no one's overcalling a lot on four carders).

[hrothgar]

awm, on Mar 7 2007, 03:58 AM, said:

officeglen, on Mar 6 2007, 06:35 PM, said:

awm, on Mar 6 2007, 06:30 PM, said:

(1) We have a decent long suit...
(2) We have a shapely hand, typically with two long suits...
(3) We have a really strong hand...

If the opponents open one-of-a-suit, we compete on more than just these three types, and for good reasons.

Really? So which hands generally bid over 1♣ which do not include any of:

(1) 15+ points
(2) A five-plus card suit better than Jxxxx
(3) Two five card suits
(4) 4-4 or better in the majors

I suppose there are some hands with lousy five card suits and close to (but not quite) 15 points that would bid (like xxxxx KQx AJx Kx is a 1♠ overcall). But unless you're overcalling a lot of four card suits on lousy balanced hands (which is far from standard) or lots of five-small suits on less than opening values (also probably non-standard) this seems fairly accurate. And if you have to bid at the two-level (say over a 1♠ opening) these hands with 12-14 points and lousy five card suits usually become passes (and no one's overcalling a lot on four carders).

Your nationality is showing...

Overcall systems based on three to four card suits aren't all that uncommon.
Many people like systems based on very nebulous direct doubles.

[glen]

awm, on Mar 6 2007, 07:58 PM, said:

officeglen, on Mar 6 2007, 06:35 PM, said:

awm, on Mar 6 2007, 06:30 PM, said:

(1) We have a decent long suit...
(2) We have a shapely hand, typically with two long suits...
(3) We have a really strong hand...

If the opponents open one-of-a-suit, we compete on more than just these three types, and for good reasons.

Really? So which hands generally bid over 1♣ which do not include any of:

(1) 15+ points
(2) A five-plus card suit better than Jxxxx
(3) Two five card suits
(4) 4-4 or better in the majors

Where does hand type 4 fit into your first 1,2,3 scheme - was I to guess that 4-4 was okay as "two long suits"? Also what about people that double 1♣ with 4-3-4-2 or 3-4-4-2 and 12-14 points - is this okay too and where would it fit into your 1,2,3 scheme or your 1-4 scheme? In your new 1-4 scheme, isn't most of 3) just a subset of 2)?

[MickyB]

Over a NT, there's more case for a bid offering spades and another place to play on 4-5 or even 4-4 shape, because having a spade fit can often be the key to winning a part-score battle. Over a suit opening, these hands can be spread between doubling, passing and overcalling (often a level lower than they would over 1NT, decreasing the chance of playing in a silly contract).

[whereagles]

Richard: it's interesting that one can make an argument for treating a 1NT opener of 10-12 as a strong one!

I would expect one would need to "change gear" at the 13-15 range, but seems like one doesn't have to change gear at all. Are all NTs strong after all? hum...

[P_Marlowe]

pbleighton, on Mar 6 2007, 06:47 PM, said:

Richard:

Playing Lionel against a weak NT:

What do you do with 16+ flat, 4441, or single-suited minor hands?

On Gerben's page he describes X as either spades and another or a very strong hand. Are the other bids capped?

What do you do after X with some clubs?

How strong do you have to be to X, and how strong to leave an X in with a misfit?

Peter

Hi,

- 16+ flat, you pass
- 4441, 2C shows clubs and hearts, 2D shows diamonds
and hearts, you either bid your strongest minor or clubs
- single suiter in a minor, pass or bid 3 of the minor
- X shows either 4-4 with spades, or a 16+ with spades

Answers of the double
- 2C is pass or correct
- 2D shows ones own suit, and denys interest in clubs,
2H similar
- 2NT shows a bal. invite with +3 cards in spades
- 3C. 3D,3H are splinter
- 3S is preemptive
- 3NT is a bal. hand with spade support

- strength of the double +11HCP, please keep vulberability in mind,
if it comes to strength and honor placement.
Dont blame the convention if you go -1100 if you bid X with a 4432
shape
- you can pass the double with +10/11 (knowing, that you have at least
the bal. of power), this has nothing to do with fit / misfit

With kind regards
Marlowe

[hrothgar]

pbleighton, on Mar 7 2007, 02:47 AM, said:

Richard:

Playing Lionel against a weak NT:

What do you do with 16+ flat, 4441, or single-suited minor hands?

On Gerben's page he describes X as either spades and another or a very strong hand. Are the other bids capped?

What do you do after X with some clubs?

How strong do you have to be to X, and how strong to leave an X in with a misfit?

Peter

Playing Lionel, 4/4 hand patterns are described as a two suiter.

So a 4=2=3=4 hand would start with a double, showing Spades and another suit while a 2=4=4=3 hand would bid 2♦ showing Diamonds and Hearts.

Single suited minors bid at the three level or pass. 44441s can describe themselves as two suited (or pass).

The version that I play (which I beleive is the standard version) doesn't devote any bids to show a strong hand. Lionel emphasizes describing shape at the expense of precisely describing range.

If partner doubles and you hold clubs you'll typically bid 2♣ (pass or correct) and hope that partner passes.

Versus a strong NT, the double normally shows 12+ HCP. I've never really seen a rigid description for the strength required to pass in the advancing seat. Its more a judgement call regarding whether one thinks that its better to scramble or try to convert for penalties and will be VERY dependent on what RHO's pass meant.

What I can tell you is the following:

If North opens a 15 - 17 HCP and East doubles showing 12+ HCP, E/W will hold the balance of power ~ 43.4% of the time. However, if we assign West 3+ HCPs, this figure increases to 48.6%. If we assign West 4+ HCP the figure increases to 53.9%. If West holds an eight count you're guarunteed at least half the deck.

If North opens a 12 -14 HCP NT and East doubles, showing 12+ HCP, then North South already rate to be the weaker of the two pairs. East / West will have the bulk of the strength 64% of the time.

[hrothgar]

whereagles, on Mar 7 2007, 01:59 PM, said:

Richard: it's interesting that one can make an argument for treating a 1NT opener of 10-12 as a strong one!

I would expect one would need to "change gear" at the 13-15 range, but seems like one doesn't have to change gear at all. Are all NTs strong after all? hum...

I'm not sure whether the data supports this: First of all, I was just looking at High Card Points. As we all know, shape also plays a factor in these types of decisions. (They are plenty of hands that can make game in either direction. The naive analysis that I did doesn't take these issues into account)

Furthermore, there is a very significant different between 12 - 14 HCP 1NT opening and a 15 -17 HCP NT opening. The chance that WE have game doesn't change significantly. The chance that they can make game increases enormously.

I'd argue that over a weak NT, our priority is winning the part score battle.

1. Find our major suit contracts
2. Avoid -300
3. Hit them when its right

Over the strong NT, our priorites change

1. Grab bidding space and prevent them from accuarte game exploration
2. Avoid large penalties
3. Hit them when its right

[whereagles]

yeah, that seems to be more or less it