[Fluffy]

Don't know if this happens to everyone, but at least to me it is like this.

I consider myself able to be a lot more objective than others are, yet regarding UI I find myself unable.

The problem is this: there is a tempo break for my partner, then I have to make a close decision, this is delicate, the UI can be clearer or not, also the decision can be clearer or not, there are always limit cases.

The fact that fairness might make anyone pick the wrong decision on purpose is irrelevant and not what I wanna talk to.

What I wanna say is: if I think about what to bid, I cannot forget the UI, and my brain will start to generate little 'concepts'* (dunno how to explain) that support the decision suggested by the UI, because I know its the right one, and I wanna pick it.


So I admit I am just unable to forget the UI and make a fair decision like if it didn't ever happen.

Is it the way the human brain works, or is it only mine?


*: for example I might tend to think my Qxx is good because RHO has opened and if he has the King, Queen is onside.....

[cherdano]

There are, I think, various psychological studies on a similar effect: under the right setup, if you tell a jury member he has to ignore a certain evidence, his/her decision is actually more likely to be influenced by it.

Anyway, in bridge I may actually be closer to Justin's bias.

[Fluffy]

yeah, I guess every fair person will make the 'wrong' decision on a 50-50 basis, but what if it is 40-60?, and 30-70?... as I said you will always find a limit case, and there is when at least my brain will tend to convert a 35-65 into a 25-75 with not very clear arguments.

[zasanya]

Jlall, on Mar 3 2007, 01:01 PM, said:

I have the opposite problem, I stretch too far to make a bid not suggested by the UI but I end up not making clearly correct bids because of this.

In my state the playing conditions are such that you often get UI even when its no fault of your P.You sometime hear conversation from other tables.Take the following 2 cases and tell me what would you do.
1)State Championship, last round of preliminary swiss league.You need 22+ VPs to be reasonably sure of a place in superLeague for top places.Top 6 tables are playing same boards.While playing 1st of your alotted 10 boards you hear from the neighbouring table;"Thats 2210""No,2220".After 9 deals you are sure you are ahead but no grand slam till then.You know you and your P who have spent hours together practicing bidding would be able to spot a grand.You are dealer and pick up 16 point hand and playing 12-14 NT 4 card majors open 1♠.P bids 2♣ and your rebid 2NT shows 15-18 points.P bids 6 NT. Your call?
2) Another State championship.North to pick up boards from a table where common boards are kept,1or 2 at a time.You cant help noticinga that a player whose bidding judgement you greatly admire picks up board no.6.After a few minutes you cant help hearing 6♣ from him.Board no.6 for you turns out to be a board where your side has points and minors .They have ♠.After a fiercely competitive auction your RHO bids 5♠.X and 6♣ both seem plausible.Your call?

[Echognome]

zasanya, on Mar 4 2007, 04:55 AM, said:

In my state the playing conditions are such that you often get UI even when its no fault of your P.You sometime hear conversation from other tables.Take the following 2 cases and tell me what would you do.
1)State Championship, last round of preliminary swiss league.You need 22+ VPs to be reasonably sure of a place in superLeague for top places.Top 6 tables are playing same boards.While playing 1st of your alotted 10 boards you hear from the neighbouring table;"Thats 2210""No,2220".After 9 deals you are sure you are ahead but no grand slam till then.You know you and your P who have spent hours together practicing bidding would be able to spot a grand.You are dealer and pick up 16 point hand and playing 12-14 NT 4 card majors open 1♠.P bids 2♣ and your rebid 2NT shows 15-18 points.P bids 6 NT. Your call?
2) Another State championship.North to pick up boards from a table where common boards are kept,1or 2 at a time.You cant help noticinga that a player whose bidding judgement you greatly admire picks up board no.6.After a few minutes you cant help hearing 6♣ from him.Board no.6 for you turns out to be a board where your side has points and minors .They have ♠.After a fiercely competitive auction your RHO bids 5♠.X and 6♣ both seem plausible.Your call?

You call the TD and tell him you have extraneous information. Since the board is now unplayable, he should award both sides average plus and give a warning (or in repeat cases) a PP to the other table for speaking too loudly.

[whereagles]

Fluffy, on Mar 3 2007, 04:01 PM, said:

So I admit I am just unable to forget the UI and make a fair decision like if it didn't ever happen.

Is it the way the human brain works, or is it only mine?

It's normal. Most people's brain works like that. Even if you can consciously disable the non-authorized info, your subconcious might use it without you realizing it.

[mr1303]

I'm ashamed to say I did something similar to that yesterday.

I heard an explanation of a bid as "key card Blackwood for spades" at a previous table.

I held:

AQxx
AKQxx
xx
xx

And opened this 1S (playing 4 card majors and a weak NT, so it isn't completely without merit)

As it was, the auction proceeded 1S 2D 2H 3NT which I passed out, and partner picked up +660 without much difficulty.

[paulg]

Fluffy, on Mar 3 2007, 05:01 PM, said:

So I admit I am just unable to forget the UI and make a fair decision like if it didn't ever happen.

Is it the way the human brain works, or is it only mine?

As it would be incorrect to ignore the UI and make a decision regardless, you are doing the right thing.

However, I agree that it can be incredibly difficult to assess logical alternatives at the table. I often feel that people assessing UI problems tend to forget that there are time constraints on making a decision. Tournament Directors, Appeals Committees and those of us who comment on forums such as these have a lot longer to make a considered decision.

So it's a case of doing the best you can. At least it will always be partner's fault for putting you in this position.

Paul

[kenberg]

Often, though not always, as you make one call you can plan out what you will be doing on the next round under various expected scenarios. Eg Your partner opens a heart, you raise to 2H, you probably have a fair idea of whether you will or will not accept an invitation (or which invitation you will accept). Now partner pauses for a bit and calls 3D. This is a true problem since to do other than what you intended to do is to let the hesitation influence your call. If I am clear in my own mind about what I was going to do, I do it. If my bid is questioned I explain my thinking as best I can, if it is rolled back I accept it. I seldom have my bids rolled back so there must be something to this approach.

Of course it is not always so simple as above. Sometimes, if we are to retain the trust of others, we simply have to accept that we cannot make a bid we would like to make. It's OK, life goes on.

[pclayton]

zasanya, on Mar 4 2007, 04:55 AM, said:

Jlall, on Mar 3 2007, 01:01 PM, said:

I have the opposite problem, I stretch too far to make a bid not suggested by the UI but I end up not making clearly correct bids because of this.

In my state the playing conditions are such that you often get UI even when its no fault of your P.You sometime hear conversation from other tables.Take the following 2 cases and tell me what would you do.

Quote

1)State Championship, last round of preliminary swiss league.You need 22+ VPs to be reasonably sure of a place in superLeague for top places.Top 6 tables are playing same boards.While playing 1st of your alotted 10 boards you hear from the neighbouring table;"Thats 2210""No,2220".After 9 deals you are sure you are ahead but no grand slam till then.You know you and your P who have spent hours together practicing bidding would be able to spot a grand.You are dealer and pick up 16 point hand and playing 12-14 NT 4 card majors open 1♠.P bids 2♣ and your rebid 2NT shows 15-18 points.P bids 6 NT. Your call?

Your not serious about this? Gonzalo is speaking of UI from his partner. You've received actual information from an adjacent table. Pard has placed the contract after you've boxed your hand. I'd still call the director, as its likely other tables are hearing these tidbits.

Quote

2) Another State championship.North to pick up boards from a table where common boards are kept,1or 2 at a time.You cant help noticinga that a player whose bidding judgement you greatly admire picks up board no.6.After a few minutes you cant help hearing 6♣ from him.Board no.6 for you turns out to be a board where your side has points and minors .They have ♠.After a fiercely competitive auction your RHO bids 5♠.X and 6♣ both seem plausible.Your call?

Well, for starters try not to notice what other tables are doing. This problem is impossible to answer without knowing your hand. In any event, I'd call the director.

[helene_t]

Kenberg has a good point. I always (unless I'm extremely tirred) ty to anticipate on various continuations of the auction. If I have an obvious call but it would transmit UI if a bid too fast, I spend some time anticipating before making the call. This has the added advantage that since my focus is on those anticipations problems, I'm less prone to receiving UI than I would be if I was just sitting relaxing.

But I sometimes wonder if I would be more effective if I concentrated on other things, like interpretting nonverbal clues from opps.

Anyway, I agree with Arend and Whereagles, I think your brain is quite normal.

[zasanya]

Echognome, on Mar 4 2007, 08:01 AM, said:

You call the TD and tell him you have extraneous information.  Since the board is now unplayable, he should award both sides average plus and give a warning (or in repeat cases) a PP to the other table for speaking too loudly.

Thank you.I was not aware that such cases are covered by the laws.Next time I will call the director.At that time I just decided to pass 6NT and doubled 5♠.

[Fluffy]

Anotehr one of those, I pick up my cards, and find them not shuffled at all, suit by suit all ordered. I have a pretty strong hand and in fact we had 16 tricks in NT.

Daddy could count to 14 before I had to make any decision, but what would I do if he had bid 6NT?, I asked a couple good & experienced players, if I should ask director next time this happens, but they didn't give me a clear answer, what do you think I should do?

[EricK]

Fluffy, on Mar 5 2007, 09:55 AM, said:

Anotehr one of those, I pick up my cards, and find them not shuffled at all, suit by suit all ordered. I have a pretty strong hand and in fact we had 16 tricks in NT.

Daddy could count to 14 before I had to make any decision, but what would I do if he had bid 6NT?, I asked a couple good & experienced players, if I should ask director next time this happens, but they didn't give me a clear answer, what do you think I should do?

I'm not sure you can deduce anything from the fact that your hand is already ordered.

[jikl]

I used to know a few people that would always sort their hands after the play so nothing could be deduced. *shrug*

Sean

[hrothgar]

jikl, on Mar 6 2007, 08:44 AM, said:

I used to know a few people that would always sort their hands after the play so nothing could be deduced. *shrug*

Sean

Funny that...

I knew people who would (occasionally) deliberately reorder their hands to fun with the next table....

[helene_t]

Jlall, on Mar 6 2007, 04:50 PM, said:

There is a very strong inference if none of your other hands came sorted that either

A ) The hand was passed out or
B ) The hand was a trick 1 claimer

I've heard the opposite inference: the hand was post-mortem'd

It probably depends on the kind of event.

But if your hand is not sorted, you can sometimes make inference from the order in which the cards were played. Assuming that the hand was not shuffled before it was put back in the case.

Alternatively, if the cards were machine-dealt and therefore sorted in round one, a sorted hand in round two probably indicates a sit-out in round one. Or maybe, if it's the last board in the round, that the bell rang before it could be played.