[sceptic]

Dealer: East Vul: None Scoring: IMP

♠ K97 ♥ 2 ♦ JT8532 ♣ T94

West North East South

 -     -     1♥    Pass
 1♠    2♦    4♥    5♦
 Pass  Pass  5♥    6♦
 Pass  Pass  Dbl   Pass
 Pass  Pass  

needless to say I was bidding South hand

how badly can you get burnt bidding like this?

[luke warm]

i probably wouldn't do this unless they were vulnerable, and i probably wouldn't do it then... they might not have a fit and west might be breathing a sigh of relief not to have to table a void in 5♥

you pushed them one level higher, which is a good thing... bidding 6♦ risks undoing that good (and i'm not saying the bid is without merit)... if i was gonna do it, i'd probably have bid it over 4♥

[Free]

Hmmm, I have a simple rule on such bidding methods: don't do that!

If you're planning to sacrifice to 6♦, then just bid 6♦ immediatly (unless it's useless to bid that high - if opps won't ever bid at 5-level). Don't give them any room for investigation if penalizing will work better than playing. Put the pressure up immediatly and hope opponents make a wrong decision.

It's like supporting partner with a preemptive 4♥: opponents will almost certainly bid 4♠ or 5m and if you plan to bid 5♥ after that, just bid 5♥ immediatly. I've seen opponents lose it completely after auctions like 1♥-1♠-5♥-???-pass-???

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

5D is fine, 6D is ...
The intention of 5D was, to make them guess,
nobody knows, if 5H makes or not, so you should
leave the opponents in 5H and see, if you have
pushed them high enough.
Over 6D they dont need to guess anymore, they
know, that there is no slam, i.e. they will go for
blood, thankful, that you will get one more down.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: I have done the same, and it will happen again,
but I try to minimize the occurrence.

[helene_t]

If the opps are not a strong and regular partnership, it's possible that RHO might have thought that LHO's pass on 5♦ was forcing and thus encouraging. This is another reason not to bid 6♦.

[bid_em_up]

sceptic, on May 14 2006, 05:52 PM, said:

how badly can you get burnt bidding like this?

umm, 1700?

2 spds, a spade ruff, 2 clubs, a club ruff, a heart, and the diamond A.

Granted, its unlikely, but stranger things have happened.

More likely is that you lose 2 spades, a heart, a spade ruff, and in all probability, at least 2 clubs. This makes you off 5 (or more) for a minimum of minus 1100 which is a losing result, even if they have a small slam.

At favorable vul, the result is likely worse, as you may push them into a slam that they werent bidding otherwise, and you have no prospects of defeating (in your hand). You can expect your spade K is in the slot, as are any outside cards that partner may hold.

Alternatively, partner could hold J10xx of hearts, the diamond A and the club A, and 5H is going down. RHO is expected to hold long hearts, and he expects them to be solid, say AKQxxxx, when in fact he has a loser. Now instead of +50.....you're minus a bundle.

As always, jmoo.

[inquiry]

Bidding like this will win sometimes (who knows, you may make 6♦ or go down only one, or they may bid 6♥ and go down), but lose many more times, (they double and you go down too many, they bid 6♥ and make).

Let's examine the auction BEFORE our 5♦ bid. Partner announced what is probably 6♦ as it is very dangerous to enter the bidding without that in the sandwich position at the two level. It is possible he has a very strong five card suit, however. Perhaps all he was trying to do was suggest a lead should RHO become declarer.

Larry Cohen would be proud of your 5♦ bid perhaps, what with LOTT and all. Your partner has five diamonds minimum, you ahve six, that is 11. I guess many of the people here would have taken the push to 5♦ as well. Heck, give partner a reasonable minimum like.. ♠Ax ♥xxxx ♦AKxxxx ♣x and five diamonds will make and six diamonds is down one, but you may be able to defeat 5♥ on a ♠ ruff, not that you will find it.

The problem here is your 6♦ bid. If have given them too much room, and you have taken your partner out of the equation. I agree with an earlier post that said if you are going to bid 6♦ bid it immediately. Your 6♦ here gives them several choices, DBL and 6♥. Worse yet, your partners hand is undefined. He my have a defensive hand with some slow heart tricks and nobody can make anything. Your bidding 6♦ in front of him takes him out of the equation. I think this is another example of bidding the same values twice. 5♦ announced five or so ♦'s and desire to compete for the hand. Nothing else has changed, so the second diamond bid is wrong.

[mikeh]

There are two, related, rules that can help you in this kind of situation.

1. When considering a sacrifice, bid as high as you plan to bid as soon as you can. Here, your 5♦ bid was very good: you cannot let them play a major suit game with this hand, so get to 5♦ immediately.

Your partner is essentially unlimited and may well hold 2 or 3 defensive tricks so bidding beyond 5 unnecessary at this point. Neither opp has yet shown any real slam interest, nor even a fit (altho RHO has lots of trump, LHO need not have any ♥ at that point), so 5♦ is enough.

2. Make the opponents make the last guess

Here, after your 5♦ was passed to rho, clearly he is guessing. Imagine yourself in his position: you have opened 1♥ and jumped to 4♥... now it is 5♦ back to you. Clearly, even if pass by partner was a force, you are guessing to some degree.

But if you, as the 5♦ bidder, are thinking of bidding again, then it is you who is making the last guess: and that is a tough way to make a living at the bridge table.

[jchiu]

I agree with Mike and the other posters who have answered the question.

However, there are instances where an advancer should avoid pushing the opponents into a contract they would not have bid otherwise. This statement generally applies when partner has made a limited bid (e.g. preempt, intermediate jump overcall), and is just a guideline when partner has made a wide-ranging overcall.

[Obvious] Maxim: Applying maximum pressure when you expect the opponents to outbid you at the cheapest level and make exactly is bad bridge.

1. Matchpoints, NV vs Vul, I held ♠Kxxxx ♥xxx ♦10xxx ♣x

(1♣) 2♠ (3♠)

We were having a bad session, and I made the lazy law-abiding bid of 5♠, over which my LHO shrugged and obligingly tabled 6♣. Partner's ♠A survived, but we were soon writing down minus 1370 on our scorecards. This was good for 9.5 matchpoints ..... on a 77 top! Bidding 6♠ either directly or delayed would have salvaged 33.5 matchpoints for minus 800, but I now feel that it is much better to either apply maximum pressure (6♠) or take it slow and only save after a confident auction (generally the former). Some of the other pairs with the opponents' cards had trouble going beyond 5♣ with x-opposite-xx in spades.

2. IMPs, NV vs NV, Dany held Kxxxx of diamonds, a half a defensive trick outside.

(1♠) 3♦ (Dbl)

She chose to bid 4♦, which drew some criticism from the other commentators at the German Open Teams Semifinals vugraph show. The second nicest comment was "4♦ is a bit wet". Her LHO bid a heavy 4♥, which became the final contract. I don't remember the full hand, but her RHO had a prime 1=5=2=5 10-count with which some players would bid 3♥. I mentioned at the time, and still believe strongly, that if she had bid a more mundane 5♦, her LHO would have bid 5♥ and arrive in slam quickly. Her teammates had a different auction, but wound up in 4♥+2 for a tense push.

3. IMPs, NV vs Vul, I held ♠KJTx ♥--- ♦Txxxx ♣xxxx

(1♥) 2NT (4NT)

Having read an article about Zia doing a similar thing in the previous day's bulletin, I chose to go for the gusto and bid 7♦. My LHO passed with his diamond void, and my RHO balanced with 7NT. Fortunately or not, the clubs and spades didn't lay onside to be squeezed, and he ended up down two trying to make. A nice pickup when our teammates brought home 6♥. As it turned out, 7♦x would only have been 1100, and maybe even 800 if they were not careful.

[Redstart]

The worst thing about that auction is the raise to 2 ♦. Is it not clear at that point that you will eventually have to bid 5♦ over 4♥? On that basis, the best bid is an immediate 5♦. Thereafter, just follow these two principles:

1. The five-level belongs to the opponents.

2. Bid up, then shut up!

[bid_em_up]

Redstart, on May 16 2006, 02:52 AM, said:

The worst thing about that auction is the raise to 2 ♦. Is it not clear at that point that you will eventually have to bid 5♦ over 4♥?

Huh? Try actually reading the auction next time

[han]

jchiu, on May 15 2006, 07:56 PM, said:

I agree with Mike and the other posters who have answered the question.

However, there are instances where an advancer should avoid pushing the opponents into a contract they would not have bid otherwise.  This statement generally applies when partner has made a limited bid (e.g. preempt, intermediate jump overcall), and is just a guideline when partner has made a wide-ranging overcall.

[Obvious] Maxim: Applying maximum pressure when you expect the opponents to outbid you at the cheapest level and make exactly is bad bridge.

1. Matchpoints, NV vs Vul, I held ♠Kxxxx ♥xxx ♦10xxx ♣x

(1♣) 2♠ (3♠)

We were having a bad session, and I made the lazy law-abiding bid of 5♠, over which my LHO shrugged and obligingly tabled 6♣.  Partner's ♠A survived, but we were soon writing down minus 1370 on our scorecards.  This was good for 9.5 matchpoints ..... on a 77 top!  Bidding 6♠ either directly or delayed would have salvaged 33.5 matchpoints for minus 800, but I now feel that it is much better to either apply maximum pressure (6♠) or take it slow and only save after a confident auction (generally the former).  Some of the other pairs with the opponents' cards had trouble going beyond 5♣ with x-opposite-xx in spades.

2. IMPs, NV vs NV, Dany held Kxxxx of diamonds, a half a defensive trick outside.

(1♠) 3♦ (Dbl)

She chose to bid 4♦, which drew some criticism from the other commentators at the German Open Teams Semifinals vugraph show.  The second nicest comment was "4♦ is a bit wet".  Her LHO bid a heavy 4♥, which became the final contract.  I don't remember the full hand, but her RHO had a prime 1=5=2=5 10-count with which some players would bid 3♥.  I mentioned at the time, and still believe strongly, that if she had bid a more mundane 5♦, her LHO would have bid 5♥ and arrive in slam quickly.  Her teammates had a different auction, but wound up in 4♥+2 for a tense push.

3.  IMPs, NV vs Vul, I held ♠KJTx ♥--- ♦Txxxx ♣xxxx

(1♥) 2NT (4NT)

Having read an article about Zia doing a similar thing in the previous day's bulletin, I chose to go for the gusto and bid 7♦.  My LHO passed with his diamond void, and my RHO balanced with 7NT.  Fortunately or not, the clubs and spades didn't lay onside to be squeezed, and he ended up down two trying to make.  A nice pickup when our teammates brought home 6♥.  As it turned out, 7♦x would only have been 1100, and maybe even 800 if they were not careful.

Jason, what you write here is all very wise and all, but it doesn't contradict the main point that others make: that you should make exactly one bid with hands like these.

[Redstart]

Sorry, my comment about the 2♦ bid was irrelevant, but I stand by the rest.