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safer alternatives to Lorenzo weak 2's? all hand shapes must have a bid

#1 User is offline   rbforster 

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Posted 2006-April-15, 21:11

As discussed in this thread on the Olt-Brink system, one feature of their system is that EVERY weak hand must preempt! Your 4333 0-count must find a bid. The method they use is called Lorenzo weak 2's which might have only a 4 card suit and is described by Free here (major bids could have minor suit canape). I'm looking to apply these ideas to a similar constructive pass system.

My question is whether anyone has any "safer" suggestions for bidding at the 2 (or 3) level, where you must bid with all hand types. For example, one could use certain 2 bids to show 2-suiters, 3-suiters, or other special hand types. These methods would presumably leads to better fits when they come up, although there might be tradeoffs treating other hand types. I enjoyed reading the discussion here on designing a preempt structure, although of course that focused on only bidding certain distributional hand types rather than bidding all hand types. Frequency isn't an issue here, since all hands must find a bid.

Here are a few ideas for comparison:

- Longest suit, just bid it
  • all show 4+ (prefer majors to minors and otherwise cheaper of equal lengths)
- Lorenzo, like 4 card major openings
  • 2/ 4+, could have a longer minor, prefer cheaper of equal length majors
  • 2/ 4+, no 4 card major, prefer cheaper of equal length minors
- modified DONT
  • 2 = 1 suiter, may be 4333 (2 asks)
  • 2// shows 44+ in the suit bid and a higher suit (possibly clubs)
- 5 card majors
  • 2/ promises 5+
  • 2/ promises 3+
I was intrigued by the use of 2 Multi (a single suiter in either major), but I'm not sure how that would fit in to a comprehensive system. Maybe something like this?
  • 2 single suiter in a minor
  • 2 2 or 3 suiter without spades
  • 2 single suiter in a major
  • 2 2 or 3 suiter with spades
I'm sure some of these are better than others, and there are probably other good ideas I overlooked. Any other thoughts or suggestions?
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#2 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2006-April-16, 04:20

It's quite easy to find some bids which covers all distributions, however, it becomes brown sticker quite fast! Several pairs at top level in Belgium play random 2, which basicly includes any hand with 0-5HCP. No suit with at least 4 cards is known, so BSC...

Your suggestions have the same problems: modified DONT has a 2 BSC, 5 card Majors also have 2m openings BSC, and your last example uses 2 and 2 BSC.

A close to non BSC structure is following:
2: 3+, includes all 4333's and hands with (still BSC, but close to not being one)
2: 4+, not completely balanced, so basicly 5+ or 4-4 with a Major
2: 4+, not completely balanced, so basicly 5+ or 4-4 with
2: 5+

This improves safety a lot (I use this structure over SOS Redoubles over 1NT opening) because the 4333's aren't bid natural and partner can easily bid a 5 card suit at 2-level, but introduces 2 as BSC because it doesn't promisse a 4+ card for sure... Most of the time it's 4+, but not always...

One of the big advantages of pure Lorenzo's is that it can't be banned, since it's cathegory RED, which is allowed almost everywhere over here ;)
"It may be rude to leave to go to the bathroom, but it's downright stupid to sit there and piss yourself" - blackshoe
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#3 User is offline   rbforster 

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Posted 2006-April-16, 12:44

Thanks for your thoughts Free. I know you play Lorenzo two's so I'm glad to hear from you. As for BSC, etc, I'm in the US and GCC defines "natural" suits as 4+ majors or 3+ minors. So my 5 card majors is GCC as is your suggestion with 2 balanced or clubs. I'll probably go with your method, actually - it seems pretty good. My DONT's 2 bid or any of the Multi-based bids besides 2 are all banned, not even superchart ;).

Random 2 - wow, 2 as your fert... and I thought 1 fert was aggressive.
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#4 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2006-April-16, 12:46

Rob F, on Apr 16 2006, 09:44 PM, said:

Thanks for your thoughts Free. I know you play Lorenzo two's so I'm glad to hear from you. As for BSC, etc, I'm in the US and GCC defines "natural" suits as 4+ majors or 3+ minors. So my 5 card majors is GCC as is your suggestion with 2 balanced or clubs. I'll probably go with your method, actually - it seems pretty good. My DONT's 2 bid or any of the Multi-based bids besides 2 are all banned, not even superchart ;).

Random 2 - wow, 2 as your fert... and I thought 1 fert was aggressive.

Back in the day, Marston - Burgess varied their Fert based on vulnerability.

They used 2 NC and 1 vulnerable
Alderaan delenda est
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#5 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2006-April-16, 22:40

This is quite similar to what Frederick suggested:

2S = 5-6 spades.
2H = 5-6 hearts.
2D = 5-6 diamonds.
2C = anything else.

Over 2C, there will be some 2D relay, and 2H and 2S are non-forcing. Important are your agreemtents after 2C gets doubled. I suggest the following agreements for opener:

pass = 4+ clubs.
redouble = 1-2 clubs, therefore either 4-4-4-1 or some 4-4-3-2 with 2 clubs.
With exactly 3 clubs, bid 2D except when precisely 4-4-2-3, then bid 2H.

Of course, responder can also make an SOS redouble.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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