[rbforster]

I was amused to read this brief writeup of the Oltmans-Brink system on Gerben's system page. In particular, in these methods ALL very weak hands, 0-7 HCPs, preempt a weak 2 bid promising only a 4 card suit. Pass is about 8-12 points and with better hands they open using a strong club system. I was wondering if anyone knew any more about this system, and what methods it might makes sense to play in 3rd seat after P-P-?. It seems all sorts of weird things are possible in light of partner's "constructive" pass, for example -

- many decent hands could just bid 3NT to play (maybe allowing for a long major transfer by the PH)
- you could open 1NT 3rd seat mostly on the strength of your passed partner, say 8-10 HCPs
- you could open 1C strong GF with 16+ or so, and not have any pesky negative bids to worry about

These are just a few ideas. Sure it probably sucks to have to bid weak 2's like this, but the negative inferences when you don't seem like they could make for very constructive auctions.

Any thoughts or other ideas about this system?

[Free]

I've played Lorenzo two's for a while, and I can say they win even against the top players of my country! I only played them NV 1&2 seat and with 2M openings only. We modified some requirements, so our pass didn't deny a 4 card M and didn't promisse any strength.

Biggest problem we had when we had 4-3 in the Majors, since we missed the 5-3 fit a lot. With 5-3M it was not such a big problem. Also with a longer and good m (I once had xxxx-x-xxx-AQJTx and opened 2♠) it's recommended not to open them (not even 2♣).

However when you want your pass to mean something you just have to find some way. Opening all weak hands on 2-level and passing with intermediates is not HUM! I doubt they played this system when Vulnerable, but you never know... Followups after a pass can be anything I think, but they probably opened a bit different in 3&4th seat. Perhaps a relayscheme, or light openings since partner has at least 8HCP...

[Gerben42]

They didn't play this system vulnerable. At red they played "standard".

Another variation is OltMaas (Anton Maas got the virus too).

2♣ = 0 - 7 no 4-card major
2M = 0 - 7, 4+card

2♦ = Multi...

Also I think I can dig up the follow-ups somewhere.

[Gerben42]

I've been thinking about a (HUM) system that does not require much weird stuff - with a constructive nonforcing pass:

Pass = 9 - 14 unbal. no 5M, or the NT range that isn't in 1NT.
1♣ = 15+ any (Precision style)
1♦ = 0 - 8
1♥ = 9 - 14, 5+♥
1♠ = 9 - 14, 5+♠
1NT = 9 - 12 or 13 - 15 depending on vuln.
2-level = whatever

[Sigi_BC84]

Free, on Apr 13 2006, 01:02 PM, said:

I've played Lorenzo two's for a while, and I can say they win even against the top players of my country! 

Why did you stop playing them if they are that successful?

Quote

Opening all weak hands on 2-level and passing with intermediates is not HUM!

I wouldn't be so sure about that, since as per WBF definition:

WBF Policy said:

2.2 HUM Systems

For the purpose of this Policy, a Highly Unusual Method (HUM) means any System that exhibits one or more of the following features, as a matter of partnership agreement:
A Pass in the opening position shows at least the values generally accepted for an opening bid of one, even if there are alternative weak possibilities

--Sigi

[Sigi_BC84]

Gerben42, on Apr 13 2006, 01:12 PM, said:

1♦ = 0 - 8
1♥ = 9 - 14, 5+♥
1♠ = 9 - 14, 5+♠

What about shifting those cyclically downward, making it:

1♦=♥
1♥=♠
1♠=Fert

Gives you a nicely obstructive fert plus transfer openings. Any obvious disadvantages I have overlooked?

--Sigi

[Gerben42]

The disadvantage is the nervous wreck you are after playing 1♠ as a fert for more than one session.

[Gerben42]

Oltbrink description (Dutch)

Even if you don't know Dutch you can probably figure it out. If not ask someone who does

P.S. The partnership Brink - Oltmans also stopped (probably for the better for SjoerT Brink, future world champion)

[Free]

Sigi_BC84, on Apr 13 2006, 04:39 PM, said:

Free, on Apr 13 2006, 01:02 PM, said:

I've played Lorenzo two's for a while, and I can say they win even against the top players of my country! 

Why did you stop playing them if they are that successful?

Quote

Opening all weak hands on 2-level and passing with intermediates is not HUM!

I wouldn't be so sure about that, since as per WBF definition:

WBF Policy said:

2.2 HUM Systems

For the purpose of this Policy, a Highly Unusual Method (HUM) means any System that exhibits one or more of the following features, as a matter of partnership agreement:
A Pass in the opening position shows at least the values generally accepted for an opening bid of one, even if there are alternative weak possibilities

--Sigi

I stopped playing them because that partnership stopped...

Playing them is no HUM, if you read that WBF article carefully, you'll notice that pass is still weaker than an opening bid of one...

Quote

A Pass in the opening position shows at least the values generally accepted for an opening bid of ONE, even if there are alternative weak possibilities

[Sigi_BC84]

Free, on Apr 13 2006, 05:49 PM, said:

Playing them is no HUM, if you read that WBF article carefully, you'll notice that pass is still weaker than an opening bid of one...

Quote

A Pass in the opening position shows at least the values generally accepted for an opening bid of ONE, even if there are alternative weak possibilities

One of us is on the wrong track (I believe it's you :-)): When they talk about "generally accepted as", they're not measuring your Pass against your own system but against their definitions of what constitutes an opening bid at the one level.

So if your "pass" promises values that are generally (as opposed to in your system) accepted for an opening at the one level, then your system is per definition a HUM. Since 7+ HCP hands are considered proper one-level openings, playing "pass" as 8-12 makes it a yellow system.

--Sigi

[Free]

Generally in Belgium, any hand which satisfies to the rule of 18 is accepted as 'opening values'. This is written down with the system regulations.

This doesn't mean everyone has to open every hand which applies to rule of 18! playing pass as 8-12 will sometimes fulfill the rule, but not always (with 8hcp you need at least 10 cards in 2 suits!). If this means it's a HUM, then almost everyone is playing a HUM in Belgium...

I don't know if I'm 100% right about this one, but I feel quite confident about it. Maybe a new thread for this discussion?

[rbforster]

Gerben42, on Apr 13 2006, 11:45 AM, said:

Oltbrink description (Dutch)

Thanks Gerben. At first glance, it looks like they play this in 3rd seat:

1X - natural and forcing
1NT - 8-11 to play
2X - weak
2NT - GF
higher - to play

As for HUMs, regulations, etc, I was interested to find that this constructive pass is probably also GCC legal. There will be some restrictions on conventions after the Lozeno 2 bids and also after the 3rd seat very weak 1NT bid. Still, you are very free to play all sorts of crazy methods with decent hands since almost any conventional opening or response is allowed when it shows GF values. Most people aren't expecting the passed hand to GF when it's got 11-12 instead of 9-10, but that's how it is.

[Sigi_BC84]

Free, on Apr 13 2006, 08:46 PM, said:

This doesn't mean everyone has to open every hand which applies to rule of 18! playing pass as 8-12 will sometimes fulfill the rule, but not always (with 8hcp you need at least 10 cards in 2 suits!). If this means it's a HUM, then almost everyone is playing a HUM in Belgium...

I don't know if I'm 100% right about this one, but I feel quite confident about it. Maybe a new thread for this discussion?

I'm not sure either, maybe you are right. My interpretation is that what matters is that such an intermediate pass always promises rule-of-18/whatever values, as opposed to a 0-11 pass as in SAYC (which does not promise an opener at all).

Maybe an expert TD could clarify.

--Sigi

[Sigi_BC84]

Rob F, on Apr 13 2006, 11:27 PM, said:

As for HUMs, regulations, etc, I was interested to find that this constructive pass is probably also GCC legal. There will be some restrictions on conventions after the Lozeno 2 bids and also after the 3rd seat very weak 1NT bid. Still, you are very free to play all sorts of crazy methods with decent hands since almost any conventional opening or response is allowed when it shows GF values. Most people aren't expecting the passed hand to GF when it's got 11-12 instead of 9-10, but that's how it is.

I've seen a crazy GCC legal system (based on Phantom Club) which would be totally HUM per WBF standards. The name was "Midnight Special" but I can't find it at the moment. IIRC it is by Noble Shore, maybe Adam knows where to find it, or just Google it.

You have to pass some constructive hands because there are holes in the opening system and many bids are two-way.

--Sigi