[pclayton]

Per Mike:

1. 5N is dangerous since it makes it impossible to play 6♣.

I don't think you can intelligently get to 6♣. Even if pard has a 4M / 5♣ pattern, I would think he would opt for 5M initially.

Furthermore, it runs the risk that partner will play you for longer ♥ than ♠.

Why?

I do not agree that the sequence of 5♦ followed by a raise shows a ♦ control. Quite the contrary: I think that either 5N followed by 6 or 5♦ followed by 6♦ or (possibly) an immediate 6♦ show a control.... whether and when the control is first round is an interesting theoretical question.

Well, as I said before, if you are pushing this hand to the 6 level (some are, some aren't - its an evaluation issue), I still argue that the cue, followed by a raise promises a control. And whether or not a 1st or 2nd round control is an interesting discussion.

<snip>

AJx Kxx Ax AQJxx. 6N is best, and 6♠ is fine, but 6♥ is horrible while the mundane 6♣ works out okay.

Axx KQx x AQJxxx 6♣ is the only slam that is favoured to make.

I'm unclear as to how these hands can comfortably get to 6♣ after a 5♦ call. Please explain. Are you suggesting we pass after ...5♦...(pass)....6♣...?


Per Frances:

Let me try out some general principles on these, and see how I get on.

To me, 5NT sounds like "pick any suit, I have 3 of them" and 5D sounds like "I have two suits, bid your lowest one". But that's just an extension from the lower levels where cue or responsive double usually has exactly 2 places to play.

This is an interesting idea, although I would think it could work the opposite: 5N is two places to play (the 4N idea) and 5♦ is the all-purpose cue that implies tolerance for all strains.

So as the doubler, with a 5413 I would bid 6S over 5NT, but I would bid 5H over 5D in case partner has hearts and clubs.

Or...5♠ over 5♦ and 6♥ over 5N.

- 5♦ followed by 5N over 5 major
sounds like GSF in the selected major (only because I always play 5NT as GSF once we've (in theory) found a fit, keeps my life simple).

This is inconsistent with the 5♦=2 places to play idea. 5N would then be needed to be...OK I have tolerance for your suit, but I really wanted you to bid one of the others, as in a 2=5=1=5 after....5♦.....5♠....5N...

<snip>

- an immediate 6♦ cue.
Diamond void, big 2-suiter, probably the majors (but pulling 6H to 6S is a huge black 2-suiter and hence invites a raise).

Agree 100%

- 5♦ followed by a raise
OK, we've found where to play

[HeartA]

1 & 3. agree with mikeh.

2. I would bid 3S only, in case pd has a big hand and want to bid minors.

[mikeh]

pclayton, on Feb 8 2006, 05:45 PM, said:

AJx Kxx Ax AQJxx. 6N is best, and 6♠ is fine, but 6♥ is horrible while the mundane 6♣ works out okay.

Axx KQx x AQJxxx 6♣ is the only slam that is favoured to make.

I'm unclear as to how these hands can comfortably get to 6♣ after a 5♦ call. Please explain. Are you suggesting we pass after ...5♦...(pass)....6♣...?

As I said in my initial post, I fully intend to pass 6♣.

Why would I not????? Partner will bid the cheapest playable trump suit over my cue, whether he takes my cue as two places to play or three. Thus I agree that he will bid a major with 4=5, but note that on my example hands he would bid 6♣ and that would in both cases (obviously, or I am really bad at constructing examples to advance my case) be a playable spot in contrast to your very poor 6♥ (assuming you commit to slam) or almost as bad (because low scoring and not risk-free) 5♥.

[luis]

whereagles, on Feb 8 2006, 10:39 PM, said:

1. Who the hell is LHO? If he can be relied upon having 8 diamonds, I might try 5♦. If not, I'll stick to 4♠ and hope to have guessed right.

2. Pard seems to have some sort of strong balanced hand. The priority is to hog the hand, so a 2NT Lebensohl must be the right bid Then we follow with some nr. of spades and chances are we get to play the hand

3. Who the heck pard thinks he is, bypassing 3NT just because "I didn't have a stopper, pard!!" Bah.. bid 5♣ and let HIM sort his way out of that. HA!

1. LHO is an unkown player, probably not a good player. Impossible to know what is 4♦ for him.

3. That's one of the interesting parts of the questions, what kind of hand with clubs bypasses 3NT? While opponents are unknown pd is -usully- very realiable.

[pclayton]

Mike: I think its a bit misleading to come up with 5-2 club fits opposite: AJx Kxx Ax AQJxx, where 6♣ is a playable spot and call 4-3 heart fit across from the same hand an impossible spot.

Why can't we move the club queen to the heart suit: AJx, KQJ, Ax, Axxxx. Here, 6♣ is very poor, but 6♥ is excellent.

I still don't think this is a worthwhile argument about 5♦ vs 5N either.

Preempts do work. We can cope with solid agreements about what 5♦ and 5N mean, but getting to the right strain and level isn't always possible.

[FrancesHinden]

Jlall, on Feb 8 2006, 11:54 PM, said:

FrancesHinden, on Feb 8 2006, 03:14 PM, said:

So as the doubler, with a 5413 I would bid 6S over 5NT, but I would bid 5H over 5D in case partner has hearts and clubs.

A rare moment that I disagree with you

If partner has hearts and clubs he is presumably forcing to slam (since if we don't fit his major he must go to 6C... I can't see him passing 5M if we DO fit his major, but if we don't driving it to 6C). So if we bid 5S over 5D partner can bid 6C over this and we can correct to 6H.

You are right on this sequence.
OK, make it so they have pre-empted in clubs and swap the minors round.

[luis]

Ok time to tell what happened at the table:

On hand #1 where they opened 4♦ I really didn't know what to do, 5♦ seemed to be very technical but then when pd bids 5♥ or 5♠ I would have exactly the same problem. I decided that 5 in a major would be a generic invitation to 6 but I had both majors so my choices were bidding 5♦ and find the right suit but don't know about the level or bid 5♥/5♠ and find the right level but maybe the wrong suit. All in all I decided that it was important to know if the hand was a slam or not and bid 5♥, pd raised to 6.

Dummy presented:
AQx
QJxxx
x
AQxx

The opening leader had AKQJxxx of diamonds so there was no overruff and the heart King was onside.

Some interesting things about this deal:
- What would have happened after a 3NT opening?
- If they open 3♦ and we have space for keycards it seems like you will stay in 5 because you might be missing 2 aces so I wonder, when they open a preempt is it better to play regular blackwood assuming the trump king if missing will be onside?? *Luis scratching his head*
- At one table the auction went 3NT (gambling) - DBl - All pass (!!) for -2300 :-)
- Besides the 2300 nobody opened 4♦ so +1430 was worth a bunch of imps I'm not sure if we did right, we were lucky or a combination


On hand #2 where they opened 2♥ and pd doubled I decided that 4♠ was not a good idea because it was very likely that pd could have a strong hand with a minor so I bid 3♠. Over 3♠ pd asked for keycards and then bid 6♠ this was his hand:

AQx
x
AKxx
AQxxx

With the sK he only needs the club king for 6 and how are you going to find it? Do you have a way? Again 6♠ depended on a finesse, this time it was offside as expected, down 1. The 2♥ bidder had 7 cards, his pd decided not to act with 4 because he thought it could help us. Sigh...

On hand #3 I think I agree a lot with Inquiry, when my pd refused to make a takeout double and decided to go above 3NT my conclusions were:
- His hand can't play 3NT facing a hand that couldn't bid over 3♠
- He doesn' have 4 hearts
- Clubs must be a broken suit too
So I passed, pd had:

x
Kxx
Axx
KJ9xxx

He misguessed clubs (the 3♠ bidder had a singleton Q) then there was a combination of endplay or diamonds 3-3 that worked for down only 1. At some tables they didn't bid 4♣ and 3♠ was made, at some others when 4♣ was bid all the pairs raised to 5♣, this was doubled half the time for 500.
You might disagree with 4♣ but when pd has some moderate values and a club fit he might not act over 3♠ and yet you can be cold for a club game. Who knows? The important thing is that if you are going to reopen with 4♣ on such a hand your pd has to be in the same wavelength to pass with the posted hand.

Feedback as usual is welcome, interesting discussion so far.

Luis

[whereagles]

luis, on Feb 9 2006, 04:48 PM, said:

So I passed, pd had:

x
Kxx
Axx
KJ9xxx

Obvious 3NT balancing bid

J/K. This is just about what to expect from 4♣ in practice. In theory balancer should, perhaps, have longer clubs and less heart lenght, but we all know the hand shown is what pard has most of the time in real life.

By the way, pard didn't fancy a double? After all, he can play in all suits, no?

[pbleighton]

"You might disagree with 4♣ but when pd has some moderate values and a club fit he might not act over 3♠ and yet you can be cold for a club game. Who knows? The important thing is that if you are going to reopen with 4♣ on such a hand your pd has to be in the same wavelength to pass with the posted hand."

I would never do it when vulnerable myself. NV, it would be OK, if marginal.

As you say, it comes down to what pd expects.

Peter

[pbleighton]

"By the way, pard didn't fancy a double? After all, he can play in all suits, no?"

He should have either 4 hearts or a better hand for double, IMO.

Peter

[FrancesHinden]

I would have either doubled or passed on the 1336. I think it's close between the two.

[ArtK78]

Everyone in this thread is punishing partner for acting over a preempt.

I agree that direct actions over preempts show values, but....

Let's not go overboard.

1) 4S. If partner cannot act over 4S, we may not have a slam. I have some stuff, but we could easily have 2 losers.

2) 3S is sufficient. A 4S bid, while it is what I think we can make, may propel partner to the stratosphere.

3) I pass 4C. I have a couple of tricks for partner. Since when does a balancing 4C call promise 9 playing tricks?