[Al_U_Card]

S7 and go to heaven,
H4 and take the door..

[Kalvan14]

Since spade is so obvious, where is the sting?

[EricK]

I would lead a spade.

A legal question has just sprung to mind: If partner makes a lead directing double and I think a bit before leading his suit, what are the UI implications for partner? Would he ever "get into trouble" if he plays me for a hand which has an alternative plausible lead.

[FrancesHinden]

Kalvan14, on Jan 31 2006, 12:41 AM, said:

Since spade is so obvious, where is the sting?

There ain't no sting. I also led a spade, but I don't think it's obvious at all. Also, a heart beats it and a spade doesn't. Now I'm going to show you the full hand, but before you start being rude about partner's double, have a look at what he said about it, because I think it does make sense.

Scoring: IMP

---

My thoughts sitting west were much as Kenbergs. I don't believe the double absolutely commands a spade lead for two reasons - first, if he was so certain that was right he either would have bid spades over 1D, or would have doubled 3NT as well. Second, he's more likely to have a holding that wants to suggest than to have one that wants to command, so that's a better use for the double.

I thought he was saying "I've got both majors, so you can lead a heart if you're sure about it, but I strongly suggest spades." I envisaged something like AQ10x in partner's hand, and could see either him being endplayed if I didn't lead one now, or that we needed to get a quick spade trick in before switching to hearts.

His logic was that I would usually lead my longer/better major on this auction, but he wanted a spade lead from pretty much any hand with a spade honour (e.g. Jx Qxxx in the majors with dummy holding KQx(x) in spades). He wanted to tell me his spades were about as much better than his hearts as they could be, and if I was in any doubt about which major to lead (e.g. 3 low in each suit) it should be a spade.

We both agreed that my actual holding in the majors made it close. With KQxx in hearts I'd lead a heart. With Qx in spades and Q9xx in hearts I'd lead a spade. We also agreed that his spade holding was about the minimum for the double. We expressed great sympathy with each other's choices. We finished on a note of partnership harmony. But we didn't beat the contract.

[kenberg]

I would have bid you partner's hand just as he did, and I have already said I would lead a spade so I agree with your harmony. I think when he doubles there is little likelihood of you overruling him (you are not likely to have enough strength to have a clearcut heart lead) but as he said, he wants you to start a spade in many circumstances where you wouldn't without the double.

A possible clue for him though: Holding the ace of spades and hearing the 3S on his right, encouraging 3N if partner stops hearts, suggests more than just the king. With Kxx(x) it might be better to just gamble on the heart stop and bid 3N to force the lead to come from the TO doubler, since placing the contract in 3N from partner's side also presents a gamble. Still, I would make the lead directing double with his hand. If his RHO holds the KJx(x), as he does, he wants (or probably wants, there could be spot card issues with rho holding four) the Queen led from Qx if you have it, which unfortunately you don't.

It's possible to overthink things. Usually he wants a spade lead with his holding, usually leading the suit partner asks for is best. Not this time.

Ken

[Walddk]

I wouldn't have beaten the contract either, because I would also have led a spade. As I see it, the only chance to find a heart lead is if East passes over 1♦ (unlikely I admit). Personally, I would have overcalled 1♠, but it's a matter of style.

If my partner doubles 3♠ on the auction you give, he will get a spade lead. To me double doesn't mean: "I think I want a spade lead". By the way, I don't agree with the double of 3♠.


Roland

[FrancesHinden]

Walddk, on Jan 31 2006, 05:07 PM, said:

Personally, I would have overcalled 1♠, but it's a matter of style.

So would I. But then we wouldn't have had this problem, and the double is not absurd.

[whereagles]

LOL.. the reason pard doubled 3♠ with such a moth-eaten suit is obvious. He didn't want us to lead away from our would-be Kxxx of hearts

[mike777]

As east, as on many hands I would have no idea what suit I want partner to lead.
I would only use the very general rule of wanting partner to lead from her strongest and longest or where she thinks we have the strongest and longest fit given my bidding.

Of course this is a general lead rule so do not expect this to always be the winning lead.

I would not x 3S as I am not sure that is the our best suit/lead from my viewpoint. I also realize I double for the lead much less so than many players on BBO. Does anyone else think x for the lead is vastly overrated/abused or is this very much a minority viewpoint?

[Al_U_Card]

mike777, on Jan 31 2006, 03:44 PM, said:

Does anyone else think x for the lead is vastly overrated/abused or is this very much a minority viewpoint?

To the extent that it really is to stop pard from making a "normal" and potentially disastrous lead when there is a good alternative that you can suggest......

[Kalvan14]

I would have doubled for t/o on the 1st round, but then I would have not Xed 3♠ (it would be close, but spades are not good enough). I disagree with the double of 3NT as a final confirmation of a spades lead: wouldn't it be overkill? Give him AQT9x in spades (and maybe Q intead of king in clubs) and he cannot be sure 3 NT is not making.

Someone might argue that the first t/o double denied very good spades. I suppose it's a matter of style and agreement.

IMHO, with Qx or Jx in spades and Qxxx in hearts, I'd be likely to lead the spade honor even without the double.

[Free]

I would've started with 1NT showing 5+♠ and 4(+)♥ (this however is an agreement). Without agreements I'd rather just overcall 1♠.

I also don't like the lead asking Dbl: since we already showed a decent 5 card, I don't have to say it's great when it's not. Partner will lead ♠ if he has something anyway, but when he has absolutely nothing there's no need to lead that suit.

With Toothbrush I'd probably defeat the contract, but with other partners I probably won't.

[kenberg]

Obviously I won't get far defending the double of 3S since it is a heart lead that will set the contract. However, fools rush in...

The heart lead works here because declarer needs to surrender the lead twice. That's somewhat unusual on the given auction. Opening leader pretty much has to hope clubs can be stopped but has no reason to believe declarer lacks nine tricks after surrendering a club. The doubler sees the ace of diamonds but with Kx in clubs has reason to be pessimistic in that suit.

A reasonable hope for doubler is that spades establish with one loss, and that partner holds the heart king. He can see declarer taking six clubs, the spade that he gives while establishing his suit, and the ace of hearts. That's eight, and the ace of diamonds prevents nine.

Wrong it is, but I don't think it particularly unlikely. But it is wrong. I won't try to defend this further.

Ken