BBO Discussion Forums: Double is in Support or penalty - BBO Discussion Forums

The double by South here is to be treated as a support double or Penalty double? What should North bid? North has 5 Card ♠ Q top, 6 Card ♦ AQxxxx, void in ♣and xx in ♥

Please let me know how top players would bid here

I would treat it as extra values, no clear direction - cooperative take-out if you were to use the bridge-world's new nomenclature ranging from pure take-out, cooperative take-out, cooperative penalty, and pure penalty.

I don't know of very many people who play support doubles at the 3 level, but I have heard of some. I have not heard of anybody who plays support doubles by a non-opener. At most I might decide I have a 3♠ bid if 1♠ implied 5+, non-forcing but constructive, which is a popular method - my hand actually gets slightly better if partner doesn't have a fit for hearts.

fwiw


1) x is not NOt a support x. never.
2) that leaves x as takeout or penalty.


As a nonexpert I would take it as takeout but I may be very wrong. good question.

Support doubles are made by the opening bidder, not overcaller or advancer. Usually they are through 2♥ so we avoid forcing partner to play a 4-3 fit at the 3-level. Some play support doubles over RHO's preempt in 4th seat - requires compensating values for the target level.

Since 1♠ does not promise we own more than half the deck, the double should be as Chris suggests, Cooperative Takeout - a tolerance for ♠ with values to compete. If your overcall range is 6-17, you should be at or near the top of your range.

I think a double is an overbid for the given South hand. Either pass or 3♠ are left to consider. 3♠ works if 1♠ promised 5+ cards and you are willing to compete to the 3-level on 20 HCP. I'd pass instead. Partner can always rebid 3♠ with values to compete and a 5+ card suit.

Not an expert, and not even a fan of support doubles, but I play them in several partnerships.

For me a support double only happens if opener is able to rebid his suit at the two level. So by definition this double will never be "support". What is the logic for the support double requiring partner to rebid the suit at the two level? If partner only has a four card suit, two of the suit maybe plenty high enough and is related to the law of total tricks.

North being 6-5 should show his 2nd suit, the secondary support in openers
suit is another reason to bid on, regardless of the meaning of the double.

Support doubles are ussually played upto two in openers suit, but some peoble
play them above.
Most would play the double as T/O, which is quite similar to support, it is not
the same, but it showes some tolerance for repsonders suit as well.


With kind regards
Marlowe

You need to discuss at which level you play support doubles. Most people play them just up to 2 ♥, so without discussion I would not treat this double as support.



It is quite seldom that you have a penalty double here and you have just one more suit for take out. So both penalty and take out doubles are out for me. That leaves X a s: Extras, partner can pass or bid. He should bid his second suit, you show your 3 spades and he may or may not reach game.

For me that would be takeout, showing a good overcall (~15+) with, probably, exactly 5 hearts (or 6 bad ones) and 4 diamonds - otherwise I have an easy rebid. On the given North hand I pass due to the flat shape.

I prefer 2D not 1S with North - but as it happens, 1S works out better because on his second turn North can bid 3D.

ahydra

I am neither a top player nor expert, but allow me to say that while I support the expressed views on the support double, I take double here as penalty. At least "co-operative penalty".
With the North hand I would take it out to diamonds.
With the South hand I would not double, but pass.

North should remove the double to Four Diamonds on the grounds that pard should have more useful holdings outside clubs.

Souths double shows a good hand with no clear direction.

You ask for expert opinion and many responses begin by acknowledging non-expert status. I will happily continue this trend.

Playing as the partner of the doubler, I would definitely not expect three spades in his hand. My thinking is that if partner has three spades and thinks that the hand can be profitably played in 3♠ he should bid 3♠. Why double if he expects me to convert it to 3♠? I suppose, with discussion, we could have an agreement that the double shows three spades and is game invitational while bidding 3♠ shows three spades and is not encouragnig. I don't have such an agreement with anyone and I am not sure I would want to, but it doesn't really sound crazy. It does, however, sound like a distinction that won't often be useful. On an auction like this it seems to me that sometimes we might want to play 3♠, sometimes we might want to pass out 3♣, sometimes, but rarely, we might want to double 3♣ for penalties. With this hand I pass, and if partner is so inclined he can double showing extras and I will leave the double in. I think the message of a double by me should be something along the lines of "We should be able to beat this on strength, but you may want to pull if your 1♠ was bid mostly on shape." I think that a spade holding of Kx would be ideal. I have an obvious lead on defense, and if partner pulls he will be delighted with my trump holding.

The above assumes no discussion, and that's the way that it is with all of my partners, but if we discussed it I would argue for this approach.

Thanks all!!!!!
I really appreciate the efforts that you all have put to clear my confusion. I have now a fair idea as to what I we should do in such a situation. It is true that we did not have an agreement whether to play support double at 3 level. Also, we did not have any agreement as to whether an overcaller is supposed to make a support double or not.

Now my partner and I will be able to have a solid agreement based on what all of you have suggested

Once again, a big Thank You all