[paulhar]

Just curious - you posted somebody else's hands. I tried Myhands and nothing shows up for me which is unusual since I know I played a few hands recently (it was a quickie tournament, is that the problem?) I did 'myhands' for my partner and found lots of hands, but none of them with me! What's happening?

[uday]

Weird. I see your hands in the database that feeds the myhands database. The xfer from the former to the latter might have been gummed up during the recent 2 outages of the myhands DB.

[etherwiz]

jtfanclub, on Aug 29 2004, 07:07 AM, said:

On August 17th, you played 10 boards. The last four were with mridd627. You got...well, see for yourself what you got.

OK - let us assume you have honorable intentions in your post.

Let us also assume that BBO has an adverage of 1500 players on line at any given hour of the day.

And let us also say that only 5% of the players complain. That is 75 complaints.

Now let us also assume that only 33% of the complaints are about the ethics of other players (the rest can be just plain software complaints "WHY THE H*LL CAN'T THIS SIMPLE @#*&*&@# PROGRAM FIX MY COFFEE ?", or just genneral charactor assasignations of the Owners / Yellows / Vocal Players) or perhaps some have enough resonableness to them that they must be lumped in with the so called 33% I contemplate would need further investigation.

That makes the number 25,
25 PER HOUR !
given 24 hours per day - 7 days a week (you can do the math?)
Even If SOME are REPORTS for the same Player
How BIG a committy is neded. OK, maybe the committy can hire out seperate investigators (and by the same logic I guess we should MAKE the people investigated PAY FOR THIER INVESTIGATION ???).

These are the numbers that may be involved. Then again, the numbers could be larger. Over the next few years are LIKELY TO BE LARGER!

Yes - you have shown how easy it is to get players records from BBO.

May I also assume YOU YOURSELF will do ALL THE INVESTIGATIONS for this Ethics Committy ??

Now while I am still in favour of an Ethics Committy (despite the numbers), I still feel that what is considered an ethics violation (cheeting) needs to be a lot more clearly defined and the actions of such a committy LIMMITED TO recomendations only. And if this seams like I want the OWNERS to take responsibility, guess what? They are the owners, and even if they offred stock in BBO I would still feel it is the Stock Owners end responsibility. If they do not want to be owners, there are ways to set up TAX FREE foundations that would insure them (mostly - but not against all) liabilities of Ownership. Therefore the committy only RECOMENDS ACTIONS and never takes them. Now a save way out for any owner is to always follow thier committy's recomendations (and no one can ever blame them anything, except maybe the way it is set up which never be as server a liability as the action itself). In the good ole USA there is ALWAYS a way around any law, with out even considering bribery. That is the American Way !

Now as far as you excepting all my hands for one day in a discussion forum on CHEATING, I still think you owe both Me, BBO (and the entire membership of BBO) an apology. Perhaps you were just making a point, and perhaps you felt that because it was my post that caused you to think this way you should make it with my record. Perhaps not. Perhaps it was not to discredit me. PERHAPS. Who (other then you) can say.

I do know what I say to it, it was only a handfull of boards that day (pun intented), one day I did not play much. Take that times the full six months back (or even 3 months back - 180 days) multiply that times 25. Mulitply that number times 24. To be fair let us cut that number by 50% now.
NOW MULTIPLY THAT TIMES THE DAYS LEFT IN YOUR LIFE
and remember it will not stop there, you have just left it up to others to carry on your own villagence after you death.

Do you always leave that much of the work to others ?
And that assumes you are doing everything you can to make this happen.
No days off, not even vacations. No other job, even to make money you may or may not need (assume you can live forever with out another dime).

Remember this started out with assumeing that 5% of the players will complain, and only 33% of thouse complaints have any validity at all.

Good Luck (and I am looking farward to seeing your next post here)
_*_Dave

[jtfanclub]

Quote

OK - let us assume you have honorable intentions in your post.

Well that's mighty kind of you.

Quote

And let us also say that only 5% of the players complain.  That is 75 complaints.

Let us say that number is a SWAG [edited, uday]

Let us assume that I get one accusation of cheating per tournament. Let us assume that approximately 5% of those I send on to Uday. My tournaments average about 200 players, which is about 1/4 of the people on tournaments at the time. Let us assume that none of those are actually assumptions, since I know all of those from personal experience. And let us assume those numbers are actually higher than average, since about half the tournaments are run by private clubs and do their own checking of cheaters without bothering Uday.

So if my results are typical, TDs get about 60 complaints of cheating per day, of which 3 per day get passed on to Uday. And those three are not merely people using outside information, that's people talking during hands, refusing to alert, attempting to intimidate the TDs, slowing down at the ends of rounds when in a bad contract in hopes of getting an A-, and other forms of cheating as well.

By all means, Uday, Gweny, TapToa, et. al, please feel free to tell me if I just have more honest tournaments than most do.

And if three per day is too many, Uday simply doesn't check the first two times somebody isn't complained about. The third time he has a complaint, he investigates.

I have to know where you got this 5% number from. Do you really send an accusation of cheating to Uday once every 20 hours you're on line? Or do you think you're atypical? Or, when you direct, do you send one accusation to Uday for every twenty pairs in your tourney?

That's what 5% per hour means.

Quote

Remember this started out with assumeing that 5% of the players will complain, and only 33% of thouse complaints have any validity at all.

Yes, and reality is closer to 1/2 of 1% complain, of which maybe 1% both have validity and are of the nature that require hand records. But, apparently to you, 5% seems like such a small number that you don't need to validate it.

By all means, try to validate it.

[etherwiz]

jtfanclub, on Aug 31 2004, 04:51 AM, said:

Let us say that you [uday]

Well I can no longer assume you mean to conduct a logicaland calm discussion no matter what I say.

You have certainly revealed YOUR REASONS you post here.

Two Things: 1st - I have never had to report anyone from any of my Tourneys, twiece I had to call someone to help, and once I ALMOST reported someone for abuse of the TD (I give players a resonable limit to express anger).

From my first day on BBO - I think I have expressed personal interest (understated) (sent Documentation) in three cases to UDay.

So it is a lot rarer (aparently) for me to start investigations then for you.

2nd - I was talking about the entirety of BBO. Once we start an ethics committy, it's use will not stay for just non-club tournaments. First of all you know that someone will apeal a ruling made in a club. Second of all - they are arguements in the Main Room which do get nasty and will result in letters to abuse (or however the Committy gets them). This will happen even if it is public knowledge that the Ethics Committy only deals with Public Tournaments (but of course you will say it could never happen - beyond the scope of the committy) and the committy could always reject such claims it still has to have a proceedure to reject them. Eventually there will be so many complaints that the committy must hear them or have a LOT looking for Fred/UDay/Rain to handle them.

Because you totally know the future and exactly what can happen there, I assume you will be dropping out of this discussion

So two things need to de decided if we are to have this Committy.

First we need to know what Power that Committy has. I propose that they can make reccomendations and the true Owners of the Site can carry them out (allows both to blame the other due to proceedure). If the committy can take action, how much action do they have. Suspension ? Length of Susension ? Expulsion ?

With reccomendations again they can reccomend anything but do not have the power to do it. That reccomendation can be adjusted (up or down) byt the owners.

Second we need to set up a proceedure to follow in each case. And do each case the same way. For example - assign the case to one person for reaserch and presentation to the committy. At presentation should the complainet be there ?? Should the TD (if any) be there ? Should the people complained against be there ?? (they may be allowed to present a defense by email with attachments if availible (chat Logs, boards, etc.)).

At the committy meeting - who is charge (moderates the discussion - calls an end to the presentation of one side or the other (if needed)). What happens if the Vote is so close that a final decission can not be reached ? How many committy members will contitute a Qurom ?

These may seam minor items now, but certainly need to be agreed BEFORE the committy starts it's job. And who will be on the committy?

Maybe the first committy should be volunteers that Fred appoints. but do they have the power to nominate other members? How about replacements for people who drop out ? (I know some people will say NO ONE will ever drop out, but can we really assume everyone serving is made immortal by the service?)

So many details and we must talk about each and every one before the committy meats.

_*_Dave
(please notice I do not respond to assinine statements, in this case quite a literal assinine statement)

[jtfanclub]

etherwiz, on Aug 31 2004, 02:01 AM, said:

Two Things:  1st - I have never had to report anyone from any of my Tourneys, twiece I had to call someone to help, and once I ALMOST reported someone for abuse of the TD (I give players a resonable limit to express anger).

From my first day on BBO - I think I have expressed personal interest (understated) (sent Documentation) in three cases to UDay.

So it is a lot rarer (aparently) for me to start investigations then for you.

And yet still, somehow, you came to a number of 5%.


A number which you don't even try to defend.

I'm fully aware that my number is higher than average, I named a couple of reasons why. And I'm not at one in twenty (5%) pairs sent to Uday, I'm about 1 in 10,000. Your own personal experience should have told you the latter number was much closer than the former, and yet you insisted upon 5%.

If I didn't know any better, I'd say it's because you had an agenda.

[bglover]

I would like to reiterate a couple of things I said way back in this thread:

First, the sort of "bad" things one sees in tourneys tend not to be "card play" things but the actions of the players themselves-- purposely delaying the playing out of a hand or the rejection of a valid claim as time is running out because it is going to be a bad board, so better to take the Avg minus rather than a flat-out zero seems to be the most prevalent I observed, closely followed by abusive behavior against TD/Opps during a tourney.

Second, as mentioned above, the number of people who are accused of cheating in card play vs. the number of people that actually do is way out of proportion. Every time someone gets fixed (good result due to bad play) the director gets called. In face-to- face bridge this sort of thing just doesn't happen as much-- people more readily accept being fixed in a live card game where they can see their opponents (and probably already know them in life from the bridge club) and already "know" their opponent isn't a very good card player to start and so, therefore, is quite capable of generating bad plays on the whole.

I've investigated literally dozens of cheating allegations on BBO that occurred during tourneys i was running. I am quite sure one person was cheating, kind of suspect another was. This is out of probably over 50 accusations. (I'm quite sure, personally, that card-play abuse is more frequent in the main room than in tourneys given what I've seen.)

In any event, the reason I point this out is that I think even a one-percent number would be a huge overstatement in terms of the cheating population on BBO. Perhaps five-percent of the accusations against individuals have any merit (probably even less than that).

That is why I felt that it was so important that any system of investigation stripped out the names of the players before the investigators got ahold of them... too easy for unfounded rumors to start. Because, the reality is, very few people actually do cheat compared to the number accused.

[inquiry]

Bglover is certainly right about at one thing in his post. The number of people accused of cheating is way out of line with the number of people who are actually cheating.

[jtfanclub]

inquiry, on Aug 31 2004, 07:24 AM, said:

Bglover is certainly right about at one thing in his post. The number of people accused of cheating is way out of line with the number of people who are actually cheating.

I don't know how much of it really qualifies as an accusation of cheating.

Let's say that I'm directing and I get a call. Somebody psyched and got a good result from it. I thank the person, check to make sure nothing weird is going on (like a missed alert), and everybody moves on to the next round. Was that an accusation of cheating?

In short sets like a tourney, no pair can possibly have serious evidence of fire. All they get at most is a puff of smoke. They tell the director because if the person is cheating, all those puffs of smoke will get investigated for a fire (if I was called by three different pairs about somebody in a four round tournament, for example, I'd be kinda suspicious). If it isn't, no harm done.

In the ACBL, they solved this by requiring all psyches to be reported. Therefore in ACBL-land it's obviously not an accusation of cheating to report a psyche. I don't consider it one here either. Neither is it an accusation of cheating to note that slow play is going to prevent you from finishing a board. To grab one that happens a lot more in face to face than here, neither is reporting a hesitation, and a possibly influenced bid by it.

I think the real question here is, what do you define as an accusation of cheating?

[hrothgar]

jtfanclub, on Aug 31 2004, 06:59 PM, said:

In the ACBL, they solved this by requiring all psyches to be reported. Therefore in ACBL-land it's obviously not an accusation of cheating to report a psyche.

I haven't played in a "live" ACBl tournament in quite some time. However, I don't recall any such regulation to report/record all psyches.

Can anyone confirm/deny this report. Please note: I am much more interested in the traditional "physical" game rather than the ACBL sanction tournaments run on BBO.

[inquiry]

jtfanclub, on Aug 31 2004, 11:59 AM, said:

I think the real question here is, what do you define as an accusation of cheating?

I don't count a report of a psych as an accusation of cheating...

What I call an accusation of cheating is... things like....

Pair _____ always wins because they cheat
Pair ____ will win because they cheat
TD, watch pair ____ because they never make a playing error
Pair _____ make impossible bids and impossible leads
Pair ____ made lightner dbl, his parnter lead from his three card suit (an unbid one) instead of his seven card suit, and his partner ruffed it....
Parntner ____ overcalled a 5 card suit vul at the three level vul, and luckily found his partner with four card support and a stiff in a side suit

Player ___ pyched a 1S bid and his partner with values and four card support never once raised him.. this was just one of the good boards

I consider those allegations of cheating. As a yellow, I get a lot (way too many) reports a cheating.. if someone hooks Queen missing four cards instead of playing for a drop, some even report that as cheating. Others report the light game bid and made as cheating or the heavy stop short of game that doesn't make as cheating. But if someone report to a TD something like this (espeically anyohter thing than just to log a psycn), it is an at least a warning of possible cheating.

Ben

[uday]

In live ACBL events you do not have to report every psychic call (they'd be drowned in reports, i'm sure), but every player has the option of reporting anything funny/rude/whatever to the ACBL recorder.

Is this just venting? Who knows...

[etherwiz]

inquiry, on Aug 31 2004, 12:24 PM, said:

Bglover is certainly right about at one thing in his post. The number of people accused of cheating is way out of line with the number of people who are actually cheating.

That is agred by almost everyone here. Actual Cheating is a small % of reported.

But that is also not my Point.

This would be an ETHICS committy.

Ethics would also include Foul Launguage, Rumours, allegations about non-bridge stuff, and we could even include Moral Ambiqueties !!

In short we do not KNOW what the Ethics committy could be called to act on.

Because of this I put in a LARGE Percentage. I also put in quite a sizable knock down in the numbers to compensate.

[uday]

I have to GO now, so continue later - but no one knows how many they will be once the floodgates are open. 5% is a starting place.

_*_Dave

[skorchev]

Hi all,

1.at my tourneys I have seen some cheaters and I reported one pair with absolutely rediculous games. I reported this case before 1-2 months, but I still have no answer and I don't think to report more of these rediculous games, because it seems nobody interest.

2.I think that the number of the cheaters increase and I personally know some players who cheating. Once of them don't play paid or any ranked tourneys, but he is cheater and every tourney he has at least 70% and he is happy.

Stefan

[inquiry]

skorchev, on Sep 1 2004, 07:01 AM, said:

Hi all,

1.at my tourneys I have seen some cheaters and I reported one pair with absolutely rediculous games. I reported this case before 1-2 months, but I still have no answer and I don't think to report more of these rediculous games, because it seems nobody interest.

2.I think that the number of the cheaters increase and I personally know some players who cheating. Once of them don't play paid or any ranked tourneys, but he is cheater and every tourney he has at least 70% and he is happy.

Stefan

Hi

Cheater, when caught, are being dealt with by "abuse" (the place where you are to report cheaters. You said, that after you report them, "you still get no answer" afte 1-2 months. Well I think I can answer that. The policy is too keep actions taken by abuse and other yellows confidential. So it would be extremely rare (one would say impossible) for you to hear back from abuse what action, if any was taken against the cheaters.

I will tell you this, not everyone TD;s (and others) report for cheating can be proved cheating. And in those cases nothing happens, or an inquiry is made about suspecious hands. In some cases cheating is proven, and then punishment is issued. However, again, no one is going to report back to you the steps they are taking.

So,
1) Don't stop reporting obvious cheaters
2) Immediately mark cheates as enemies and thus ban them from your events
3) Don't expect to hear back from abuse, that will not happen.

Ben

[skorchev]

Quote

QUOTE (skorchev @ Sep 1 2004, 07:01 AM)

Quote

Hi all,

1.at my tourneys I have seen some cheaters and I reported one pair with absolutely rediculous games. I reported this case before 1-2 months, but I still have no answer and I don't think to report more of these rediculous games, because it seems nobody interest. 

2.I think that the number of the cheaters increase and I personally know some players who cheating. Once of them don't play paid or any ranked tourneys, but he is cheater and every tourney he has at least 70% and he is happy. 

Stefan 

Hi

Cheater, when caught, are being dealt with by "abuse" (the place where you are to report cheaters. You said, that after you report them, "you still get no answer" afte 1-2 months. Well I think I can answer that. The policy is too keep actions taken by abuse and other yellows confidential. So it would be extremely rare (one would say impossible) for you to hear back from abuse what action, if any was taken against the cheaters.

I will tell you this, not everyone TD;s (and others) report for cheating can be proved cheating. And in those cases nothing happens, or an inquiry is made about suspecious hands. In some cases cheating is proven, and then punishment is issued. However, again, no one is going to report back to you the steps they are taking.

So,
1) Don't stop reporting obvious cheaters
2) Immediately mark cheates as enemies and thus ban them from your events
3) Don't expect to hear back from abuse, that will not happen.

Ben

OK Ben, thank you for your answer.

Stefan

[1eyedjack]

It is my observation that in face to face bridge some really extraordinary decisions in the bidding and play take place, that are "shrugged off" by opponents, but similar events in on-line are generally used, often in quite small populations of hands, to illustrate evidence of cheating, and the only difference between the two scenarios is the greater opportunity for cheating when online.

A classic example is this hand:
http://bridgebase.lunarpages.com/~bridge2/...indpost&p=34218

No-one would have dreamt of accusing of cheating in a f2f game after the finesse, and indeed I believe the finesse is the correct play and there is no case to answer. But however ridiculous the accusation I fear it is all too frequent in like circumstances.

[jtfanclub]

When you only play two boards with somebody, if you don't call when it looks like it might be cheating on one board, how can the person ever be caught?

Third hand RHO opens 1♥. I have something on the order of:

---

I double. Bidding goes 4S by P, double by RHO, 5H by me, 6C by partner, doubled, passed out, and not surprisingly made.

The director was called. I don't know what was said, but I'm sure it was something to the effect that I might be cheating. Why should I object to that?

[etherwiz]

TD's (specially) should be aware that a lot (if not most) accuzations of chating are by envious people. A lot of the other is againt particular lucky opps, and still more are against the occassionaly lucky opps.

THis does not leave much of the reports of cheating. And one more thing, no one has said anything about the pairs that MIGHT be cheating but have "normal" boards.

There must INDISPUTABLE EVIDENCE for me to report someone.

More times then not, reports are for foul manners and/or language against Opps and/or partner. That is provable easyly (chat records) but what is offense to someone is often a joke (or worse yet - an affectionate jesture) by the maker.

So what is left.

The very slim amount of intentional cheting (very hard to verify) and the obnoixious players that are continueingly reported.

So it is very important the reports are made, so that ABUSE can discover the ture number of reports against any one person. But it is also important that only SERIOUS ALLEGATIONS that can be bakcked by records be reported so as not to waiste time.

Also remember that if you have evidense (but do not know if it is enough to warrent reporting) just report it. Only thouse who are reported X number of times are investigated and we only can reach that nnumber of times if incidents are reported. Perhaps ABUSE was just on the edge of talking to that player and your report will push it in the direction to correct a problem, or maybe that player has never been reported and will not suffer ANY for the single incident.

A final observation, you may have evidence in the form of a players chat record, but you might have to take the time to tell the player HOW to send it to you. In the middle of the tournament ! Very hard to do, and quite frequently the cha proves every accussation false too, after you go to the trouble of course.

Like I said this would be ETHICS Committy and ETHICS must include not only all countries's version of ethics, but also all personality types too.

_*_Dave

[EricK]

jtfanclub, on Sep 1 2004, 06:02 PM, said:

When you only play two boards with somebody, if you don't call when it looks like it might be cheating on one board, how can the person ever be caught?

Third hand RHO opens 1♥. I have something on the order of:

---

I double. Bidding goes 4S by P, double by RHO, 5H by me, 6C by partner, doubled, passed out, and not surprisingly made.

The director was called. I don't know what was said, but I'm sure it was something to the effect that I might be cheating. Why should I object to that?

Playing penalty doubles of 1 level openings is a very unusual agreement. Was it alerted?

Eric