[jillybean]

Shugart23, on 2026-March-05, 19:52, said:

I am Shugart23, shugart24 and just recently also became strong 1c on bbo. Peter and i play mostly the 8 board tournament on BBO which kick you off after 45,seconds. Peter is almost 2 years into learning I’m very experienced but had a3-4 year break when COVID hit

It sounds like you are a very experienced player but somewhat oblivious of the Laws, as are many players. If I am correct, you are better than most in wondering and asking if this auction was ethical. Now you've crossed the line of knowing this is UI and you must "carefully avoid" making use of it
If on the other hand, you were aware of your responsibility to "carefully avoid" using UI, I think it would be appropriate to look closer and apply the full force of the Laws. In a game forcing heart auction, 5D is forcing, there has been some use of UI if you pass 5D.

As for Peter, it's a good time for the TD to explain the Laws, he has also crossed the line and for ethical players, there is no going back.
Players ignorant of the Laws have the advantage.

[strong 1c]

jillybean, on 2026-March-05, 20:37, said:

It sounds like you are a very experienced player but somewhat oblivious of the Laws, as are many players. If I am correct, you are better than most in wondering and asking if this auction was ethical. Now you've crossed the line of knowing this is UI and you must "carefully avoid" making use of it
If on the other hand, you were aware of your responsibility to "carefully avoid" using UI, I think it would be appropriate to look closer and apply the full force of the Laws. In a game forcing heart auction, 5D is forcing, there has been some use of UI if you pass 5D.

As for Peter, it's a good time for the TD to explain the Laws, he has also crossed the line and for ethical players, there is no going back.
Players ignorant of the Laws have the advantage.

Thanks, I need to explain to Peter about not letting my alert 'wake him up'.

What kind of hand would you have to have in this auction, to make you want to cue bid 5D when you know your partner has 5-7 HCP, and at least 4 hearts particularly when a 4NT bid would likely be a control asking bid? I don't think I used UI when I passed; I just made the decision that Peter forgot the bid when he bid 3D which I don't think is unethical or illegal

[jillybean]

strong 1c, on 2026-March-06, 05:15, said:

Thanks, I need to explain to Peter about not letting my alert 'wake him up'.

What kind of hand would you have to have in this auction, to make you want to cue bid 5D when you know your partner has 5-7 HCP, and at least 4 hearts particularly when a 4NT bid would likely be a control asking bid? I don't think I used UI when I passed; I just made the decision that Peter forgot the bid when he bid 3D which I don't think is unethical or illegal

I don't know your system, only you and mycroft know the truth.

---

[Shugart23]

Assuming Peter and I are in same page, opener can bid 4Nt for control ask and 5H shows an ace or 2 kings. I just asked Peter how he would interpret a 4Nt bid in that sequence and he said control ask.

[mycroft]

A few notes, kind of all over the map.

• Those commenting on the pass of 5♦ need to show the UI that *East* has. Now it might exist - a flinch or a show of shock on the Alert of 3♥, or a tank before 5♦ as West tries to figure out how to recover, or... Frankly, the chance that it does exist is quite high. But nothing was mentioned. And without UI, a player is entitled to make whatever call they wish, including deciding partner "must have forgot" rather than "has 25 high, A=5=4=3".
  • This one really bothers me. As I said, most of the time, there *is* UI - a flinch or a audible reaction to the Alert or explanation; or a clear timing issue (UP-fast or "how do I get out of this" slow). And obviously, in this case it is in OP's interest to hide such UI from us, should it have existed. Frankly, it is in OP's interest to hide such UI from *himself*. Pattern-matchers that we all are, it is quite possible that there was UI, OP didn't notice it consciously at the time (and just "guessed right"), and doesn't recognize it now either. But with all that, " 'he guessed that partner forgot and partner did forget' equals 'he would only have guessed that with UI, so L16' " is just as Rule of Coincidence here as it always is.
    
  • Having said that, I find the argument that 5♦ isn't obviously a cuebid from an unlimited hand that just got a super-accept - and instead "is undefined" - very convenient, and frankly evidence of "unconscious brain trying to justify a decision it made". Which increases my suspicion about the above more than somewhat. But still, we don't get to say "East must have had UI because he guessed right".
    
  • In the appeal case that I have quoted repeatedly where I did my best to damage my own case (but the auction was such that they believed me because "why else?" anyway) I presented the UI at the time of the director call; "this call was slow, and this call was immediate. And his partner passed." Yes, I did not get agreement during the auction, or even during the Clarification period, or when dummy hit. I even waited to call the TD until *after* the hand was over and the contract made. But I presented my case for there being UI.
    
  • Now, I would *suggest* that OP look carefully at his memory, and see if there just might have been some "way" to know this was a forget. And, whether he finds one or not, remind himself to be aware of it for next time - and there *will* be a next time; regular partners playing a complicated, non-standard system that one of them doesn't truly understand yet will have forgets and will find their partners' reactions easier to read than most (and most, frankly, are *very bad at* this. But OP has shown serious interest in *being* ethical - and that implies "even when the opponents wouldn't be able to tell").
• Jillybean's hand would bid 4♠, not 5♦, shirley? Same with the 0=6=4=3 that can't just Keycard? That doesn't point to pass over 5♥, but still.
  
• I took the auction to my Precision partner, and we *do* play 3♦ in this auction natural. Without any explanations, I asked what 4♥ was, and he *immediately* said splinter. Now, we do play Kickback, but he said "no, can't be that, there's no 5-7 hand that can be ace-asking opposite 16." I asked about natural-to-play, because 3♥ can't be forcing; "there's no hand that would double that can bid 4♥ with no support", especially "and didn't preempt". This is not evidence for what OP and partner play it as; but *he* would have bid 5♦ with the West hand (while wondering how they have a 10-card heart fit and bid-and-raised spades) - without ♣A, slam is zero%; without the ♦K, it's 50% at best; with xxx x Kxx(x) Axxxx(x), is that not an upgrade into 2♣?

[pescetom]

--

[axman]

mycroft, on 2026-March-06, 09:56, said:

Kickback, but he said "no, can't be that, there's no 5-7 hand that can be ace-asking opposite 16." I asked about natural-to-play, because 3♥ can't be forcing;

Introducing a data point (where the 7pt hand asks for aces):

1H-P-2D-P
4N-P-5H-P
6H-P-6N**

opener J-AKTxxxxxx-x-xx

** there is no hand that 'can' ask for aces (when partner can well have zero) that doesn't have a fast entry opposite KTxx-VOID-AQxxxx-AQx. hehehehehe

[mycroft]

Okay, sure. Now remember the 7-count *passed as dealer* :-)

(seriously, though, and out of context, great story!)

[strong 1c]

mycroft, on 2026-March-06, 09:56, said:

A few notes, kind of all over the map.

• Those commenting on the pass of 5♦ need to show the UI that *East* has. Now it might exist - a flinch or a show of shock on the Alert of 3♥, or a tank before 5♦ as West tries to figure out how to recover, or... Frankly, the chance that it does exist is quite high. But nothing was mentioned. And without UI, a player is entitled to make whatever call they wish, including deciding partner "must have forgot" rather than "has 25 high, A=5=4=3".
  • This one really bothers me. As I said, most of the time, there *is* UI - a flinch or a audible reaction to the Alert or explanation; or a clear timing issue (UP-fast or "how do I get out of this" slow). And obviously, in this case it is in OP's interest to hide such UI from us, should it have existed. Frankly, it is in OP's interest to hide such UI from *himself*. Pattern-matchers that we all are, it is quite possible that there was UI, OP didn't notice it consciously at the time (and just "guessed right"), and doesn't recognize it now either. But with all that, " 'he guessed that partner forgot and partner did forget' equals 'he would only have guessed that with UI, so L16' " is just as Rule of Coincidence here as it always is.
    
  • Having said that, I find the argument that 5♦ isn't obviously a cuebid from an unlimited hand that just got a super-accept - and instead "is undefined" - very convenient, and frankly evidence of "unconscious brain trying to justify a decision it made". Which increases my suspicion about the above more than somewhat. But still, we don't get to say "East must have had UI because he guessed right".
    
  • In the appeal case that I have quoted repeatedly where I did my best to damage my own case (but the auction was such that they believed me because "why else?" anyway) I presented the UI at the time of the director call; "this call was slow, and this call was immediate. And his partner passed." Yes, I did not get agreement during the auction, or even during the Clarification period, or when dummy hit. I even waited to call the TD until *after* the hand was over and the contract made. But I presented my case for there being UI.
    
  • Now, I would *suggest* that OP look carefully at his memory, and see if there just might have been some "way" to know this was a forget. And, whether he finds one or not, remind himself to be aware of it for next time - and there *will* be a next time; regular partners playing a complicated, non-standard system that one of them doesn't truly understand yet will have forgets and will find their partners' reactions easier to read than most (and most, frankly, are *very bad at* this. But OP has shown serious interest in *being* ethical - and that implies "even when the opponents wouldn't be able to tell").
• Jillybean's hand would bid 4♠, not 5♦, shirley? Same with the 0=6=4=3 that can't just Keycard? That doesn't point to pass over 5♥, but still.
  
• I took the auction to my Precision partner, and we *do* play 3♦ in this auction natural. Without any explanations, I asked what 4♥ was, and he *immediately* said splinter. Now, we do play Kickback, but he said "no, can't be that, there's no 5-7 hand that can be ace-asking opposite 16." I asked about natural-to-play, because 3♥ can't be forcing; "there's no hand that would double that can bid 4♥ with no support", especially "and didn't preempt". This is not evidence for what OP and partner play it as; but *he* would have bid 5♦ with the West hand (while wondering how they have a 10-card heart fit and bid-and-raised spades) - without ♣A, slam is zero%; without the ♦K, it's 50% at best; with xxx x Kxx(x) Axxxx(x), is that not an upgrade into 2♣?

It was an on-line game, so no observable flinch....I really appreciate the education and I can see how the 5D bid is/could be a cue bid for some partnerships...just it truly is undefined with Peter at this time. I'll be having the conversation with Peter however about this topic

[StevenG]

mycroft, on 2026-March-06, 09:56, said:

Those commenting on the pass of 5♦ need to show the UI that *East* has.

East has the UI that his double wasn't alerted.