[Tramticket]

pescetom, on 2025-December-01, 16:19, said:

Your bid, playing current/favourite agreements?

If 2C is my only strong bid, I open 1H.

In one partnership I play Benji two bids. Playing these methods. I open 2C (8 playing tricks in a suit or 21-22 balanced), then rebid 3H over the 2D relay - showing a self-contained suit.

[P_Marlowe]

pescetom, on 2025-December-02, 15:23, said:

This is one of the many interesting points raised by the hand.
FWIW we do bid the shortage and I think that pays off overall, although obviously it can cost.


Over 4D, Partner will not bid 4H, but follow up himself with 5C, or perhaps 4NT RKCB if that is still on.
But we're into the details of partnership slam investigation style now, time for the full diagram once the 2D 2S auction has progressed.

4NT is certainly RKCB.
If p bids 5C I will bid 5H, I neither have the Ace of diamonds, nor the Ace of spades,
with both he can bid 6H himself.

[thepossum]

1 heart
Too light even for me to bid 2 clubs LOL
I can only count 8 tricks too

Maybe if partner is looking tired bid 4 hearts 8+2=10 non favourable

[pescetom]

So in the diamonds variant:
1H 2C
2D 2S
3H ?

Has Opener fixed trumps, and if not which bids by Responder will now do so?

[P_Marlowe]

pescetom, on 2025-December-03, 03:13, said:

So in the diamonds variant:
1H 2C
2D 2S
3H ?

Has Opener fixed trumps, and if not which bids by Responder will now do so?

Sure, although 4H is an valid option.
As it is, after 3H, responder has no way to make a move toward slam, except 4NT,
all other bids can be constructed as natural / shape showing.
The beauty of setting trumps (bypassing diamond) is, that you avoid this,
and quite often it is said, that 74 hands can be treated as single suited.

A 3H bid is also leaving the door open to play 3NT, in case the hands dont
mesh well, I mean for all I know, responder would bid the same with 6-4 in the
blacks, and we certainly would bid the same with 6-4 in the reds.
And 3H also does not show any add. strength, and responder could still have a
min game forcing hand as well.

Obv., if p finds a raise to 3D you are better placed to find the possibly better
slam.

[pescetom]

P_Marlowe, on 2025-December-03, 03:20, said:

Sure, although 4H is an valid option.
As it is, after 3H, responder has no way to make a move toward slam, except 4NT,
all other bids can be constructed as natural / shape showing.
The beauty of setting trumps (bypassing diamond) is, that you avoid this,
and quite often it is said, that 74 hands can be treated as single suited.

A 3H bid is also leaving the door open to play 3NT, in case the hands dont
mesh well, I mean for all I know, responder would bid the same with 6-4 in the
blacks, and we certainly would bid the same with 6-4 in the reds.
And 3H also does not show any add. strength, and responder could still have a
min game forcing hand as well.

Obv., if p finds a raise to 3D you are better placed to find the possibly better
slam.

Yes that is how we play this sequence too, and why I too chose to bid it as single suited.

I was just wondering if others play things differently over 3♥. I guess it depends in part on how one agrees 2♠ in this auction. If the fourth suit was asking rather than showing a stop, then it might be logical to use 3♠ now as a slam try accepting hearts, with all else natural.

[DavidKok]

pescetom, on 2025-December-04, 03:52, said:

I guess it depends in part on how one agrees 2♠ in this auction. If the fourth suit was asking rather than showing a stop, [...]

Yet another very nice cheap auction muddied by stopper agreements.

[P_Marlowe]

DavidKok, on 2025-December-04, 04:01, said:

Yet another very nice cheap auction muddied by stopper agreements.

I could start to rant about playing 2S as natural and NOT as FSF,
but I will leave it with this small troll bait.

[P_Marlowe]

pescetom, on 2025-December-04, 03:52, said:

Yes that is how we play this sequence too, and why I too chose to bid it as single suited.

I was just wondering if others play things differently over 3♥. I guess it depends in part on how one agrees 2♠ in this auction. If the fourth suit was asking rather than showing a stop, then it might be logical to use 3♠ now as a slam try accepting hearts, with all else natural.

The first q would be, what would opener bid with 6H and 4S, does he need more than a min
to bid 2S? If opener has 4D and 4S, would he bid diamonds or spades?

I also think, that responder should show his hand type, over 2D / 2H, does he have
primary heart fit, is he bal. or has he a single suited club hand?

If opener can bid 2S without add. strength, than the risk of missing a 4-4 in spade
is basically non existing.
And than you could use 2S as FSF or what ever you want to name it, but even if
you req. add. strength by opener to bid 2S, FSF works ok, he always can raise with 4
spades.

[pescetom]

P_Marlowe, on 2025-December-04, 05:25, said:

I could start to rant about playing 2S as natural and NOT as FSF,
but I will leave it with this small troll bait.

It was natural in this auction, as I figured (perhaps wrongly) that most people would play it that way. I play it as a stopper ask after a 2/1 GF and so would probably have bid 2NT here (if I can remember the hand, and apologies to all for not having posted it yet... as soon as I reach a PC).

[mike777]

pescetom, on 2025-December-03, 03:13, said:

So in the diamonds variant:
1H 2C
2D 2S
3H ?

Has Opener fixed trumps, and if not which bids by Responder will now do so?

1. No hearts are definitely not fixed as trump, in fact opener has mis bid their hand and denied these strong hearts.
2. I don't know responders hand, but we are in a mess, unfortunately..🥺😯

My guess is responder has 5C and 4S.

[mw64ahw]

pescetom, on 2025-December-04, 06:50, said:

It was natural in this auction, as I figured (perhaps wrongly) that most people would play it that way. I play it as a stopper ask after a 2/1 GF and so would probably have bid 2NT here (if I can remember the hand, and apologies to all for not having posted it yet... as soon as I reach a PC).

It sounds like you have a beginner who a) doesn't recognise a self-sustaining suit, b) doesn't understand the difference between 2N & 2♠ in terms of showing/asking or perhaps just doesn't like playing in NT, c) is confused by cue-bidding and d) won't try for slam after they bid 1♥ as the points don't add up. On this basis settle for 4♥ or force the issue holding the strong hand.

[pescetom]

mw64ahw, on 2025-December-04, 09:36, said:

It sounds like you have a beginner who a) doesn't recognise a self-sustaining suit, b) doesn't understand the difference between 2N & 2♠ in terms of showing/asking or perhaps just doesn't like playing in NT, c) is confused by cue-bidding and d) won't try for slam after they bid 1♥ as the points don't add up. On this basis settle for 4♥ or force the issue holding the strong hand.

No, we are just exploring one possible auction variant with bids by a multitude of actors, sorry if it got confusing.
The variant of bidding 2D rather than jump rebidding the self-sustaining suit was initiated by akwoo and liked by cyberyeti.
2S as showing is what I imagined he might expect, 2S as asking is what I myself play, 2NT is what I would probably bid at that point when 2S is asking (and does not say I am balanced or like the idea of playing in NT, just that I want Opener to continue to describe his hand and am ready to play NT from my side if we end up there).
I doubt anyone is confused by control-bidding, certainly not me (FWIW I actually imposed trumps from the start, see OP).

[pescetom]

Here it the hand of South and the auction at our table.

MP

---

As it happened, it made no difference that we did not start 1♥-2♣; 3♥ although I do prefer the latter.

How would it have worked out for you?

[jillybean]

It looks kinda simple
1H 2C gf
2H showing 6, or whatever your methods are to show 6
Now hopefully partner shows the heart fit and takes control

2C 2D
2H I play as 6, now same as above

[P_Marlowe]

pescetom, on 2025-December-04, 12:48, said:

Here it the hand of South and the auction at our table.

MP

---

As it happened, it made no difference that we did not start 1♥-2♣; 3♥ although I do prefer the latter.

How would it have worked out for you?

After
1H - 2C
3H - ...

What is wrong with RKCB?
Responder controls all suits, ... the heart Quality can be figured out with RKCB.

Responder knowes / gets to know

6H tricks,
2D tricks, King of diamonds, if you play spiral scan
you may be able to detect the Q of diamonds
2C tricks,
1S trick, ... King of Spades missing

I will end up in 6H, but 7H will have reasonable chances,
(if you are able to locate the Queen of diamonds, 7H looks
great)
you will get the clubs running ... unless opener has xxx
in clubs, opener may have a 7th heart,
but I dont like gambling / going down, I am most likely
way to timid in the Grand Slam department.

[pescetom]

P_Marlowe, on 2025-December-04, 13:14, said:

I will end up in 6H, but 7H will have reasonable chances,
(if you are able to locate the Queen of diamonds, 7H looks
great)
you will get the clubs running ... unless opener has xxx
in clubs, opener may have a 7th heart,
but I dont like gambling / going down, I am most likely
way to timid in the Grand Slam department.

My partner located the Queen of diamonds, but then called 7NT instead of 7♥.
"Tell me why I don't like mondays" was my chagrined thought, but I should have known better.

[P_Marlowe]

pescetom, on 2025-December-04, 13:44, said:

My partner located the Queen of diamonds, but then called 7NT instead of 7♥.
"Tell me why I don't like mondays" was my chagrined thought, but I should have known better.

All is well that ends well, how much more was 7NT worth compared to 7H?

[mw64ahw]

pescetom, on 2025-December-04, 12:33, said:

No, we are just exploring one possible auction variant with bids by a multitude of actors, sorry if it got confusing.
The variant of bidding 2D rather than jump rebidding the self-sustaining suit was initiated by akwoo and liked by cyberyeti.
2S as showing is what I imagined he might expect, 2S as asking is what I myself play, 2NT is what I would probably bid at that point when 2S is asking (and does not say I am balanced or like the idea of playing in NT, just that I want Opener to continue to describe his hand and am ready to play NT from my side if we end up there).
I doubt anyone is confused by control-bidding, certainly not me (FWIW I actually imposed trumps from the start, see OP).

I read Monday game for beginners:)

[pescetom]

P_Marlowe, on 2025-December-04, 13:51, said:

All is well that ends well, how much more was 7NT worth compared to 7H?

It could be gold, in a better room (this is MP).
Here it made no difference except to my blood pressure, a few were in 6♥ and others in 4♥+3.