[shugart24]

I've managed to confuse myself, so I need someone to straighten me out. If I am leading partner's suit that I have NOT supported, we give upside down count....so having 8 and 5, we lead the 5. If we have the 9 6 4, we will likely lead the 6. What should we lead with K 4, or 10 4? What should we lead with K 7 4? Thank you.

[DavidKok]

I think the answers are largely the same as the ones to your previous question on leads.

• Leads and signals are different. 'Upside down count' refers to a signal, not a lead agreement. You should make those sets of agreements individually, though certain choices work together better.
  
• You are making life so difficult for yourself. If you enjoy it then by all means stick with it, but if you're also getting it confused then it's definitely a net negative. Having different lead agreements for partner's suit and other suits, and then different agreements for partner's suit when supported and partner's suit when not supported, is a huge amount of work for very little gain. Other popular examples include different agreements at the 5-level or different agreements against NT and trump contracts - all of these gain, but most by only marginal amounts.
  
• Personally I lead the K from Kx, the T from Tx and the 7 from K74. However, you should decide this within your own partnership. There is 'correct' lead, but your post doesn't contain enough information to tell what would be 'correct in your partnership'.

[shugart24]

DavidKok, on 2025-June-08, 06:13, said:

I think the answers are largely the same as the ones to your previous question on leads.

• Leads and signals are different. 'Upside down count' refers to a signal, not a lead agreement. You should make those sets of agreements individually, though certain choices work together better.
  
• You are making life so difficult for yourself. If you enjoy it then by all means stick with it, but if you're also getting it confused then it's definitely a net negative. Having different lead agreements for partner's suit and other suits, and then different agreements for partner's suit when supported and partner's suit when not supported, is a huge amount of work for very little gain. Other popular examples include different agreements at the 5-level or different agreements against NT and trump contracts - all of these gain, but most by only marginal amounts.
  
• Personally I lead the K from Kx, the T from Tx and the 7 from K74. However, you should decide this within your own partnership. There is 'correct' lead, but your post doesn't contain enough information to tell what would be 'correct in your partnership'.

Thanks David. I do agree that when picking up a new partner, one cannot have a very complicate agreement on leads. However, with a regular partner, I believe the effort is worthwhile to have opening leads vary between NT vs Suit defense and within that, agreements should vary between leading partner's suit vs a different suit and then after the opening lead is made and the dummy comes down, different agreements apply. And just to make it even more complex, when leading partner's suit it's a function of whether or not his suit was supported or not. So you are 100% correct that my partner and I are developing a pretty complex agreement. Fortunately, we have almost all of it in our memory banks

The last sticking point I was having was having an honor in partner's suit as in K74 or K4 and where you did not support it in the bidding. (If I did support the suit with K74, we lead the 4)

[bluenikki]

shugart24, on 2025-June-08, 04:59, said:

If we have the 9 6 4, we will likely lead the 6.

That has the serious deficit of making it hard for partner to read (if declarer can conceal their lowest), compared with leading the 9.

What compensating benefit is there?

[Shugart23]

bluenikki, on 2025-June-08, 07:31, said:

That has the serious deficit of making it hard for partner to read (if declarer can conceal their lowest), compared with leading the 9.

What compensating benefit is there?

I don't disagree. At what point do you lead middle ? 10 7 4 or J 7 4 or Q 7 4 or K 7 4 ? (in the scenario where you did not support partner's suit and are giving count)

[smerriman]

shugart24, on 2025-June-08, 07:11, said:

Fortunately, we have almost all of it in our memory banks

You've posted a *lot* of threads about what card to lead in a certain situation. The answer to what to lead from a particular combination should be instantly obvious. If it isn't even when you can see the suit, it's going to be even less obvious from partner's perspective.. and that's putting aside the fact most comments in the past have been that your general agreement is poor to begin with. I suspect this is costing you a *lot* more than you realise.

[thepossum]

I thought leads used a few basic principles and guidelines with the occasional genius psych lead thrown in

[DavidKok]

thepossum, on 2025-June-08, 20:54, said:

I thought leads used a few basic principles and guidelines with the occasional genius psych lead thrown in

Yes, this is my preferred style. In general I think there's two steps to leading: 1) how to choose which suit to lead; 2) given the suit, which card is the systemic lead. Part 1 is interesting and underexplored, while part 2 should be automatic.

[Huibertus]

Shugart23, on 2025-June-08, 08:02, said:

I don't disagree. At what point do you lead middle ? 10 7 4 or J 7 4 or Q 7 4 or K 7 4 ? (in the scenario where you did not support partner's suit and are giving count)

Everybody that leads 2nd/4th best has the issue of concealing their lowest card when they hold 3/5 cards.
Everybody that leads 1st/3rd/5th best has the issue of concealing their lowest card when they hold 2/4/6 cards. (You see here where the advice "If you want to receive your ruffs when you lead a singleton, don't lead from doubletons" comes from)

The idea of leading the x-th card is bidding should allow partner to work out how long the suit was you lead from, while the spot card helps him to work out how many higher cards declarer has in hand with the rules of 10,11,12,13, and thus which card to play.

It IS possible not to lead x-th best but to choose for parity leads (lowest from an even number high spot from an odd number or vv) that will allow partner to work out exactly how long your suit is more often, while knowing what card to play himself less often (due to not knowing which rule to apply).