[thasler]

Hi,

I have played ACOL (4 card majors) for years but am now playing with a few American partners, mostly playing 2/1 game force. However, I am playing with 1 partner who prefers SAYC.

I opened 1D and he held (s) A7 (h) A974 (d) 2 © KT9754.

It seems beginners are routinely taught to respond 1H on hands like this. As you might expect, I rebid 2D. What now? He elected to bid 3C and I showed false preference and bid 3H with 2 hearts and 3 clubs. Partner then bid 4H, which was not a success. You could argue that he could have gambled on 3NT but a) the gamble would not have paid off and b) what would he do with no space stopper? Like most people who encounter something new, my emotional reaction is that this is nuts! Surely, you should bid "length before strength"? Even if you don't play 2/1 game force, 2C seems the only logical choice on a hand like this. Is this a known flaw in SAYC or is my understanding incomplete/ wrong? BTW, 5C was cold as it happens.

[akwoo]

Your partner's second bid should be 2N; 3C is game forcing. Over 3C, you shouldn't bid 3H with only 2 - you need 3. You should bid 3N with a spade stopper and 3S without one.

[mw64ahw]

akwoo, on 2025-February-18, 19:39, said:

Your partner's second bid should be 2N; 3C is game forcing. Over 3C, you shouldn't bid 3H with only 2 - you need 3. You should bid 3N with a spade stopper and 3S without one.

This is the approach I learnt playing Standard American many moons ago.

[thasler]

Thanks to both of you. It seems I have a lot to learn. I agree with Larry Cohen: beginners should be taught 2 over 1 from the start. It is much easier, in my opinion.

[P_Marlowe]

thasler, on 2025-February-18, 16:54, said:

Hi,

I have played ACOL (4 card majors) for years but am now playing with a few American partners, mostly playing 2/1 game force. However, I am playing with 1 partner who prefers SAYC.

I opened 1D and he held (s) A7 (h) A974 (d) 2 © KT9754.

It seems beginners are routinely taught to respond 1H on hands like this. As you might expect, I rebid 2D. What now? He elected to bid 3C and I showed false preference and bid 3H with 2 hearts and 3 clubs. Partner then bid 4H, which was not a success. You could argue that he could have gambled on 3NT but a) the gamble would not have paid off and b) what would he do with no space stopper? Like most people who encounter something new, my emotional reaction is that this is nuts! Surely, you should bid "length before strength"? Even if you don't play 2/1 game force, 2C seems the only logical choice on a hand like this. Is this a known flaw in SAYC or is my understanding incomplete/ wrong? BTW, 5C was cold as it happens.

The seq. start 1D - 2C is one of the hardest starts, even agreeing to play 2 over 1 gf, this seq. is quite often a special case.
Keeping the bidding low is not the worst option. What to do after a 2D is up for discussion, a gf 3C seems like an overbid.
I guess I would settle for 2NT.

[jdiana]

akwoo, on 2025-February-18, 19:39, said:

Your partner's second bid should be 2N; 3C is game forcing. Over 3C, you shouldn't bid 3H with only 2 - you need 3. You should bid 3N with a spade stopper and 3S without one.

I have to admit that I didn't know 3♣ was GF here in SAYC. Forcing, of course, but if opener bid 3♦, I would have thought responder was free to pass. But what you say makes sense. 2NT is the better bid.

[mikl_plkcc]

thasler, on 2025-February-19, 10:10, said:

Thanks to both of you. It seems I have a lot to learn. I agree with Larry Cohen: beginners should be taught 2 over 1 from the start. It is much easier, in my opinion.

As a beginner, you should always bid the longest suit if the system allows you to do so. So partner should have bid 2C, otherwise the 5C will never be found. The auction 1D - 1H - 2D - 3C misstates the shape by misleading a holding of 5 H and 4 C.

The above should be all the OP should know.

------------------------------------------

Putting existing systems aside, if we teach "natural bidding" to beginners and use the following logic to guide them:

1. 1NT opening
There are 13 tricks in the deal, so on average you should get 6 1/2 tricks. You are bidding to take 7 tricks without trumps, that will be slightly more than average. A queen more in your hand will likely get you half a trick more, so you should bid with a queen more than the average.

2. 1-of-a-suit opening
You want to choose a suit as a trump, so you want the trump suit to be longer than the opponents. With 5 trumps in your hand, you expect that your trumps can outnumber the opponents, so with 5 trumps and average strength, mostly in the trumps, you should open 1 of the suit.

3. Preemptive
You have a hand which has a long, strong trumps, and you don't want anyone to play in anything other than yours. With 6 trumps in your hand headed by a few honours, and no outside values, you bid to the level you expect to make, assuming the other 3 hands are average.

Then the only remaining problems are how do you bid your hand if it contains some strength, but unsuitable for the above bids? As a major is preferable to a minor, people started opening minors to show these hands which did not suggest as a final contract, but just to show information to the partner that I have some values.

And these 3 guidelines were actually how bridge players more than a century ago (when Royal Auction Bridge with its improved point count was in its infancy) bid, and most importantly, it is actually playable. 1NT was 12-15, 2NT was 16+, 1 of a major was 5-card major with honour strength inside, and 1 of a minor is informatory opening.

In my opinion it is hard to explain why 2/1 should be GF to beginners, especially the resulting Forcing 1NT which forces beginners to lie about their hand shape, causing numerous inference problems afterwards. Based on the above I think that we should teach "5-card majors, 12-14 1NT" to beginners instead.

Going back to the dawn of contract bridge, when the concept of "approach forcing" was created, it wasn't even deemed natural because there were so many forcing bids based on various rules which are hard for beginners to remember. I think I have seen some systems jump shift to show any game forcing hand, such that even the auction 1♥-1♠ can be passed because it is limited! In some older Acol systems a 2/1 can be made as little as 7 or 8 points, and responder can pass the opener's minimum rebid (unlike Standard American which is forcing to 2NT, or even forcing to 3NT in 2/1 GF), those systems all have the principle that the higher you bid, the stronger hand you have, and all non-jump can be passed that you can play in 1♥ or 1♠ if it is obvious that a fit cannot be found.

[mw64ahw]

jdiana, on 2025-February-25, 09:49, said:

I have to admit that I didn't know 3♣ was GF here in SAYC. Forcing, of course, but if opener bid 3♦, I would have thought responder was free to pass. But what you say makes sense. 2NT is the better bid.

SAYC is more prescriptive than SA, which I referenced in a post above.

[mike777]

All bridge bids😎 are natural or if you prefer all are unnatural

Don't worry about if natural or not.