[jillybean]

Disclaimer. Before I get whacked for not bidding my shape, this is a hand from my game. I was Directing, not playing.

No matter what your methods, styles or tendanices, I am going to force a pass on you in first seat.

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Over 2C, what are your agreements of 2M by opener?

[akwoo]

If 2C is game forcing, this is too weak. If 2C is game forcing except on rebids of 2N and 3C (and maybe also 3D), this is still too weak (because I'd want to rebid 2H).

So 1H it is.

This is a good hand for XYZ, where I get to bid 2C on my second turn and 3C on my third.

[jillybean]

I am a passed hand

[mikeh]

I heart. If I bid 2C we may miss the heart fit which is probably our best chance for game (although 3N may be as good opposite the right hand). We can get out in 3C if need be, assuming reasonable methods. 2C is nf so we can’t risk partner passing with 4432 shape

[jillybean]

Here it gets complicated murky. We are bidding our short suit first or else we risk missing a heart fit.
Partner won't bid 2H over 2C without extras as he will be forcing us to the three level with a diamond preference.

How do we get out in 3C without suggesting we have longer hearts?

[mike777]

 jillybean, on 2025-January-26, 19:03, said:

Here it gets complicated murky. We are bidding our short suit first or else we risk missing a heart fit.
Partner won't bid 2H over 2C without extras as he will be forcing us to the three level with a diamond preference.

How do we get out in 3C without suggesting we have longer hearts?

How do you get out if unpassed hand?
If you are playing 2/1 Walsh versions
This needs to be in your basic bones structure..somehow..if you are playing strong club or some version of KS
This should be discussed in your structure.

For me this is why I play a XYZ structure where I can rebid 3C

[smerriman]

jillybean, on 2025-January-26, 19:03, said:

How do we get out in 3C without suggesting we have longer hearts?

If partner bids 1♠ or 1NT, then you're in an XYZ sequence (I think you play that?), which specifically has a way to let you sign off in 3♣ with a weak hand, though you need to have agreed with your partner which one (some by a direct 3♣, some as 2NT a relay to 3♣ which you pass, some by 2♣ then 3♣).

If not playing XYZ then jumping to 3♣ probably shows the same anyway.

If partner rebids 2♦ I'm happy playing there.

[jillybean]

smerriman, on 2025-January-26, 20:03, said:

If partner bids 1♠ or 1NT, then you're in an XYZ sequence (I think you play that?), which specifically has a way to let you sign off in 3♣ with a weak hand, though you need to have agreed with your partner which one (some by a direct 3♣, some as 2NT a relay to 3♣ which you pass, some by 2♣ then 3♣).

If not playing XYZ then jumping to 3♣ probably shows the same anyway.

If partner rebids 2♦ I'm happy playing there.

I know some players do not play xyz on by a passed hand. I prefer to play it on over any 1-1-1

Without xyz, would some players expect longer hearts after 1♥ followed by a 3♣ bid?

[smerriman]

jillybean, on 2025-January-26, 21:01, said:

Without xyz, would some players expect longer hearts after 1♥ followed by a 3♣ bid?

If 2♣ isn't artificial, then I'd expect that would show the hand with clubs and longer hearts, so there's no need to jump. If it's NMF to those players over 1NT, then you're probably happy enough rebidding a 5 card major if you had one.

While I'd highly advise against learning anything from GIB, it would describe 1♦ - 1M - 1N - 3m as a "bar bid" (even as a non-passed-hand), showing a weak hand with 4M and long minor. The concept made sense, so I guess it came from somewhere..

[mikeh]

smerriman, on 2025-January-26, 22:24, said:

If 2♣ isn't artificial, then I'd expect that would show the hand with clubs and longer hearts, so there's no need to jump. If it's NMF to those players over 1NT, then you're probably happy enough rebidding a 5 card major if you had one.

While I'd highly advise against learning anything from GIB, it would describe 1♦ - 1M - 1N - 3m as a "bar bid" (even as a non-passed-hand), showing a weak hand with 4M and long minor. The concept made sense, so I guess it came from somewhere..

It was a popular approach in the context of old fashioned 2/1. It was popularized in Max Hardy’s books on 2/1…afaik, Hardy didn’t develop any of the methods he described but he did the bridge community a great service by compiling and describing ‘scientific’ bidding methods used by leading West Coast experts as of the early 1970’s. Including ‘walsh’ responses to 1C, wherein responder bypassed diamonds to show a 4 card major, and new minor forcing. It was the use of the ‘unbid’ minor as an artificial bid that prompted using 1m 1M 1N 3m as weak. The advent of two way new minor (later expanded into xyz) that obviated the need for this method.

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2025-January-26, 21:01, said:

I know some players do not play xyz on by a passed hand. I prefer to play it on over any 1-1-1

Without xyz, would some players expect longer hearts after 1♥ followed by a 3♣ bid?

You should, imo, play the 2C portion of xyz by a passed hand, since (unless you routinely open 10 or 11 counts in 1st and second) you can have an invitational hand despite being passed


As for 2D, here’s what I like, after 1m 1M 1N, where responder is a passed hand:

2C puppets to 2D, to play or as a preface to making a natural invitational bid

2D is natural…the length depending on which minor opener bid….but….and thus is the good part…it promises 5 cards in the major. This allows opener to bid 2M with 3 card support while passing 2D with a doubleton (or a stiff if that’s permitted in your methods)

[Cyberyeti]

I opened 1♣ so wouldn't have this problem.

[mw64ahw]

Cyberyeti, on 2025-January-27, 02:27, said:

I opened 1♣ so wouldn't have this problem.

Yep teaching some of the basics like R20 before addressing the tricky sequences could be a good idea.

[mike777]

 mw64ahw, on 2025-January-27, 02:58, said:

Yep teaching some of the basics like R20 before addressing the tricky sequences could be a good idea.

But per the rule of 20 you don't open this hand.

I don't follow it but at least if you do, follow all of the rule.

The rule says discount short suit points.
The rule says take vulnerability into account.

[Cyberyeti]

mike777, on 2025-January-27, 07:46, said:

But per the rule of 20 you don't open this hand.

I don't follow it but at least if you do, follow all of the rule.

The rule says discount short suit points.
The rule says take vulnerability into account.

I play rule of 19, I would not open if I had Q/xx in the side suits, but I'm prepared to count Qx/x as 1.

[mike777]

I think that is great you have an agreement and building partnership trust by following it, No small feat.

Watching on BBO I see people hanging that agreement, brilliantly upgrading ridiculous R18 openings to meet R19

Upgrade being the cool word of the year 😉😄