[AL78]

This hand came up a couple of days ago in which the opponents have slam on but couldn't find it, mainly because the system they were playing (Benji Acol I think) meant they were at the three level before East got to show their hand:

---

Given the limitations of the system for bidding very strong hands, is there a way to find 6♦ or 6NT (could West bid 4♦ over 3NT as a slam try)? I'm guessing a strong club system would work much better here with the bidding space it provides.

[Cyberyeti]

I'm bidding a slam opposite a balanced 23 with the W hand unless partner fails to cue clubs.

That said I think it should start 2♦-3♦-4♦ and now cue bidding and W's avoidance of BW/KB and positive response will tell E he has ♦KQ and a heart card to reach 6.

[mw64ahw]

Given West has ♦ I'd temporise as over a standard 2♣ approach so
2♦-2♥
2N-3♠ SI minor
3N-4♦
4♠ odd KCs, K♠ - 6♦ all KCs Q♦
6N counting 12 tricks

In fact I had a similar hand the other day playing Acol with an experienced pickup partner and opened 2♣. Unfortunately after 2N they didn't have the 3♠ bid to start the slam try in ♣. Partner had 2 Aces and a singleton, but bid 2♦. 6N makeable.

[Cyberyeti]

mw64ahw, on 2025-January-24, 07:39, said:

Given West has ♦ I'd temporise as over a standard 2♣ approach so
2♦-2♥
2N-3♠ SI minor
3N-4♦
4♠ odd KCs, K♠ - 6♦ all KCs Q♦
6N counting 12 tricks

In fact I had a similar hand the other day playing Acol with an experienced pickup partner and opened 2♣. Unfortunately after 2N they didn't have the 3♠ bid to start the slam try in ♣. Partner had 2 Aces and a singleton, but bid 2♦. 6N makeable.

It occurs to me going for diamonds from the start (as I did too) could be wrong, if the west hand is QJ10x, Kx, KQxxxx, x you are off if the diamonds don't break, 6♠ only requires one of the suits to break

Similarly from W's pov, partner could have AQx, KQJx, Axxx, Ax which is 12 in NT or ♦ but 13 in hearts

[P_Marlowe]

AL78, on 2025-January-24, 05:49, said:

This hand came up a couple of days ago in which the opponents have slam on but couldn't find it, mainly because the system they were playing (Benji Acol I think) meant they were at the three level before East got to show their hand:

---

Given the limitations of the system for bidding very strong hands, is there a way to find 6♦ or 6NT (could West bid 4♦ over 3NT as a slam try)? I'm guessing a strong club system would work much better here with the bidding space it provides.

The auction developed brilliantly, ... 3NT is just garbage, opener sees a 9-10 card fit and 31+HCP,
what is stopping him from showing the fit? (*)
3NT basically says, I happen to hold a shortage in diamonds, 4441 (or 5431 ) come to mind, and you bid 3NT, and
this ends the auction, and responder without a sure fit makes a sensible decision by passing it out.
System has nothing to do with it.

(*) I dont understand the alert of 3D nat. or AK? Does this means, 3D could be bid on AK alone? If this is an option,
I would say this is not playable, either go with natural suits or with controls.

[jillybean]

AL78, on 2025-January-24, 05:49, said:

I'm guessing a strong club system would work much better here with the bidding space it provides.

Come and play Precision with me.
2♦ 3♦ 3nt is an awful start to a strong auction. I obviously don't play Benji Acol but isn't Benji 2♦ 25+, Benji 2♣ 23-24?
Anyway, west can move over any strong definition of 2D, but change the system!

[AL78]

P_Marlowe, on 2025-January-24, 09:27, said:

(*) I dont understand the alert of 3D nat. or AK? Does this means, 3D could be bid on AK alone? If this is an option,
I would say this is not playable, either go with natural suits or with controls.

It is natural and wasn't alerted at the table, I just put it in the auction in order to give full details of what the bids show. A positive response means an A and a K or 8+ HCP.

[AL78]

jillybean, on 2025-January-24, 09:40, said:

Come and play Precision with me.

I've never played a strong club system and would have no-one to play it with anyway.

[mycroft]

Precision: It's beautiful if the opponents keep quiet with their 9-card spade fit. 1♣-1♥; 2NT-3♠; 3NT-4♦; 4♠-6♦? 5♣ "Last Train"? whatever, 6♦ unless we find the spade void and decide to try NT. The symmetric relay people are in better shape (sorry), so will get to 6NT.

Benji Acol or American style, 2m-3♦. I assume that's not random 8 with quacks and a 9-fifth suit? 3NT shows a distinct lack of imagination. Sure, if it shows 22-24 balanced, passing with 9-anna-void, and a good suit even for 3♦, also shows a distinct lack of imagination (but if 4♦ might be passed by partner, I'm not sure what to do, except maybe 6♦ punt). If it specifically implies bad diamonds, well, KQxxxx might still be enough.

[pescetom]

jillybean, on 2025-January-24, 09:40, said:

Come and play Precision with me.

How does Precision go after my 2♠ interference showing 5+ card spades and a 4 card minor and how does it differ from the same auction but with a minimum 1♣?
Sure it can be made to work, but our 22-23 "balanced" opening still looks Precise.

[pescetom]

We would start with 2♣ here and this forces West to put all his eggs in one basket by showing the diamonds (after 1NT we would Stayman to keep the hearts door open). So it might well go:

________ 2♣ (strong)
2♠(a suit) - 2NT (bid it in transfer)
3♣ (6+♦ >=KQ) - 3♦ (fix)
3♥ - 3♠
3N (♠) - 4♣
4♠ - 5♣ (♣, odd keycards)
5♠ - 6N
P

[mikeh]

Our homegrown methods

2C 2D
2H 3C
3N 4D
4S 5H
6C 6D



2C. Normal 2/1 big opening

2D. Gf, promises an ace or king, says nothing else other than denying certain specific hand types

2N. Balanced 22-23, can be super 21

3C. Modified puppet stayman

3N. 4 spades, denies hearts (also denies 5 spades)

4D. Natural slam try, 5+ diamonds, usually 3+ hearts

4S. Shows ok hand for diamonds, cue bid, bypassing hearts denies heart control

5H. Cuebid. Will promise the ace since it forces to slam opposite a denial of a heart control, and mp lies mild or better grand slam interest

6C. Cuebid

6D. Nothing extra.



It’s possible for west to simply bid 6D over 4S. It’s very difficult to construct a hand lacking a heart control but with real diamond support that doesn’t offer a reasonable play for small slam and basically impossible for grand to be likely. AKQx xx Axx AKQx works so west probably shouldn’t give up


Playing in my other, less system-heavy, partnership:

2C 2D
2N 3C
3S 4D
5C 5H
5S 6D


2D gf, waiting. We don’t show a positive suit response with complex hands

2N. Balanced 22-23. Could be super 21

3C regular stayman

3S 4+ spades, denies 4H
4D natural, forcing, implies heart length
5C shows a liking for diamonds and 3 keycards
5H cuebid
5S cuebid


6D. Conclusion.

[akwoo]

Bridge exercise: Look at the West hand and construct a 22 hcp balanced hand for East that doesn't make 6N.

You'll find that such hands do exist, but must be fairly specific.

Ergo, in the absence of better methods, West should just blast a slam.

[mw64ahw]

Playing reverse 'birthright'
2♣-2♦
2N 22-23 - 3♣ 5cM ask?
3♦ no 5cM, not 2/3♥2♠ - 3♠ 4♥
3N - 4♦ x46x
4♠ odd KCs, K♠ - 6♦ all KCs, Q♦
6N counting 12

[johnu]

AL78, on 2025-January-24, 05:49, said:

Given the limitations of the system for bidding very strong hands, is there a way to find 6♦ or 6NT (could West bid 4♦ over 3NT as a slam try)?

The better question is how does West just not bid a slam opposite 23+ balanced. The given auction is certainly one way.

East could/should raise to 4♦ instead of 3NT with A10xx trump support, but West should always drive to slam.

[P_Marlowe]

johnu, on 2025-January-24, 16:37, said:

The better question is how does West just not bid a slam opposite 23+ balanced. The given auction is certainly one way.

East could/should raise to 4♦ instead of 3NT with A10xx trump support, but West should always drive to slam.

I think the one who misdescribed his hand is East, not West.
Eveybody claims 3NT showes a bal. hand, it does not.
3NT denies any interest in diamonds, basically this translates to diamond shortage,
and stoppers in the other suits.
Even with a 5 card spade suit bidding 3S, ask ending up in 4NT, or playing NT from
the wrong side.

[jdiana]

If you play 2NT-3♠ as a minor suit slam try, you could start:

2♣ - 2♦
2NT - 3♠ (relay to 3NT)
3NT - 4♦ (6+ ♦, slam try)

at this point, the Adventures in Bridge suggestion is that opener can stop in game with 4NT or 5♦; with slam interest, he should start cuebidding or just bid slam. But I wonder if it would make sense to treat any bid other than 4NT or 5♦ as a Minorwood response. So, it could continue:

4♠ (0 or 3 KC) - 6♦ or 6NT

Any thoughts on using Minorwood after 2NT-3♠?

Reference - https://www.advinbri...k-in-bridge/225

[AL78]

P_Marlowe, on 2025-January-25, 08:05, said:

I think the one who misdescribed his hand is East, not West.
Eveybody claims 3NT showes a bal. hand, it does not.
3NT denies any interest in diamonds, basically this translates to diamond shortage,
and stoppers in the other suits.
Even with a 5 card spade suit bidding 3S, ask ending up in 4NT, or playing NT from
the wrong side.

I believe this is what East believed they were showing with 3NT, a 23+(ish) balanced hand, since 2♦ - 2♥(relay) - 2NT would show the 23+(ish) balanced hand. The positive response should be a slam invite opposite a GF opener, as you say, opener bids 3NT to say their hand does not fit well so they should make a more enthusiastic noise with the actual hand.

[pescetom]

 jdiana, on 2025-January-25, 09:27, said:

If you play 2NT-3♠ as a minor suit slam try, you could start:

2♣ - 2♦
2NT - 3♠ (relay to 3NT)
3NT - 4♦ (6+ ♦, slam try)

at this point, the Adventures in Bridge suggestion is that opener can stop in game with 4NT or 5♦; with slam interest, he should start cuebidding or just bid slam. But I wonder if it would make sense to treat any bid other than 4NT or 5♦ as a Minorwood response. So, it could continue:

4♠ (0 or 3 KC) - 6♦ or 6NT

Any thoughts on using Minorwood after 2NT-3♠?

Reference - https://www.advinbri...k-in-bridge/225

We play that 3♠ here initially asks for a 5 card minor, which Opener will bid naturally. If he denies with 3NT then Responder with a long minor of his own will bid the other minor as RKCB. This could easily be adapted to Minorwood if that is your style.

[mikeh]

jdiana, on 2025-January-25, 09:27, said:

If you play 2NT-3♠ as a minor suit slam try, you could start:

2♣ - 2♦
2NT - 3♠ (relay to 3NT)
3NT - 4♦ (6+ ♦, slam try)

at this point, the Adventures in Bridge suggestion is that opener can stop in game with 4NT or 5♦; with slam interest, he should start cuebidding or just bid slam. But I wonder if it would make sense to treat any bid other than 4NT or 5♦ as a Minorwood response. So, it could continue:

4♠ (0 or 3 KC) - 6♦ or 6NT

Any thoughts on using Minorwood after 2NT-3♠?

Reference - https://www.advinbri...k-in-bridge/225

Minorwood is right up there (with mini-roman) as an abomination of a convention.

There is a method that is somewhat distantly related to minorwood that, imo, is very useful. It’s called ‘optional keycard’ and applies in limited auctions. In my experience, including seeing examples of others who play it, it’s reserved for auctions in which opener has shown a very strong balanced hand….as in opening 2N or 2C then 2N. See my earlier post about how we’d use it in one of my partnerships

I gave what is a typical sequence. Basically over 2N responder uses stayman (imaging opener held KQXx Ax in the reds….you’d want to play in hearts because hearts scores better than diamonds. Make it KQxxx Ax and it’s even clearer…..so responder should stayman. Obviously that’s not possible if you have to respond to 2C by showing diamonds, which is why we don’t show our long suit when holding a two suited or 3 suited hand.

2C 2D 2N 3C 3S 4D……4D shows 5+ diamonds and interest in something other than 3N. Optional keycard means that opener’s bids are:

4H 1st step. Has a diamond fit but a real minimum hand, in context. 4S 2nd step shows 4 keycards (playing 1430….obviously can’t have just 1) and a good hand for diamonds. 4N…4N is always regressive…almost always a doubleton diamond. 5C shows 3 keycards. 5D shows 5 keycards, no queen…..it won’t be 2 keycards….you simply can’t construct a 2N let alone a 2C then 2N hand that is diamond positive with only 2 keycards. 5H shows 5 keycards and the queen….don’t hold your breath on these last two responses.

The point is that minorwood doesn’t allow opener to do anything but make robotic keycard responses, leaving responder with no idea whether opener’s hand is good for diamonds or not. Imagine responder has KJxxxx in diamonds. He finds out that his side has all the keycards but is missing the queen. Does opener hold Ax…..where you’re odds on to lose a trump trick and might lose two on a bad day. Or Axxx where you’d have to be unlucky to lose even one, and can’t lose two?


Any keycard ask that takes place BEFORE finding out whether opener has a fit is silly….basically it should be restricted to an extremely rare scenario where asker doesn’t care. Say KQJxxxx.

What makes it particularly weird that anyone plays minorwood is that there are very effective alternatives. Optional keycard is one. Kickback is another. I’m not sufficiently familiar with Turbo to know how it stacks up but some truly great players use it.