[mayoutu]

This is a problem from Bridgeworld.com. The bidding is:

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Here, 3D is transfer to hearts, and 4D shows 5-4 or more in the red suits. My question is, if I bid 4NT or even 5NT grand force, which suit is the trump suit? Some books say the last bid suit is the trump suit. If diamonds are trumps, then it is impossible to know whether partner has the king of hearts.

[Cyberyeti]

Firstly, what is 2♦ ? assume waiting

Secondly, do you have any reason to think partner is any better than xxx, J109xx, Jxxx, Kx where you have no 5 level safety.

The 2N bidder has no reason to Blackwood here as you have no reason to go beyond 4♥ if partner doesn't. Just bid 4♥, if partner bids on you're golden.

[mike777]

This is really a question of captaincy not what is the trump suit. Trick question.
South rebid 2NT which limited and defined their hand.
North has not limited their hand. That makes North captain.
In other words South do not bid 4NT or 5NT, you are not in charge, you are not the boss, you are not the Captain.

[mw64ahw]

I alleviate this issue by playing it as a cue for ♥. If I have 5♥4♠ then I transfer and bid 3N. This leaves 3♠ as a relay to 3N and I can then show a minor. With ♥ support opener won't complete the relay. 4/5♥5♠ go through 3♣

[Cyberyeti]

mw64ahw, on 2024-December-24, 10:31, said:

I alleviate this issue by playing it as a cue for ♥. If I have 5♥4♠ then I transfer and bid 3N. This leaves 3♠ as a relay to 3N and I can then show a minor. With ♥ support opener won't complete the relay. 4/5♥5♠ go through 3♣

This is the natural bidding forum, but it doesn't necessarily solve the problem. Do you bid a 4-5 card minor when you fail to complete the relay because you have 3 card hearts ?

[awm]

Our agreement is that a good hand for slam in hearts is supposed to super-accept the transfer (even with three-card support). This rarely gets us in trouble and simplifies the subsequent auction. By simply accepting the transfer, opener denies holding a good hand for slam in hearts (this can be doubleton heart, or slow cards, or just very minimum). After the 4♦ bid, opener's calls are:

1. 4♥ shows a preference (usually three-card support, rarely Hx) but not a good hand for slam in hearts.
2. 4♠ is a cuebid for diamonds (showing a good hand for slam in diamonds).
3. 4NT is a suggestion to play, with no fit for either suit and typically a stack of honors in the other suits.
4. 5♣ (rare) is a cuebid for diamonds with no spade control.

On this hand I would've super-accepted with a 3♠ cue.

[mw64ahw]

Cyberyeti, on 2024-December-24, 10:52, said:

This is the natural bidding forum, but it doesn't necessarily solve the problem. Do you bid a 4-5 card minor when you fail to complete the relay because you have 3 card hearts ?

No I wouldn't bother to to show the minor if a Major suit fit is found.
W.R.T natural bidding neither 4/5N are suggested as being natural, nor are transfers.

[smerriman]

If you bid 4nt, you are suggesting there is no trump suit.

If you bid 5nt, the trump suit is the one you'll be facing when partner takes you to court..

[Cyberyeti]

mw64ahw, on 2024-December-24, 12:03, said:

No I wouldn't bother to to show the minor if a Major suit fit is found.
W.R.T natural bidding neither 4/5N are suggested as being natural, nor are transfers.

5N doesn't exist in this sequence, 4N is natural but probably unwise

[apollo1201]

It (highly) dépends on whether 3H is forced or not, or on would partner bid 2H rather tjhan 2D with xx AKxxx Jxxx xx (add a black Q if you want).

Let s say we have no agreement. So we have to improvise.

We have to remark that partner went above 3NT despite not being sure of a fit. So they cannot be min min given they can afford to risk playing 4NT. With the lousy hand Cyber posted (even lousier as with 14 cards it is still not really exciting), you bid 3NT above a forced 3H. No other game except 4H should partner be fitted seems realsitic.

That being said, in that context, 4NT by opener is definitely a rejection of responder s suits. Lots of black honors and no fit / little fillers for red suits. We are not going anywhere.

Here we have a good hand but could be off one KC in H + a black suit loser. In 6D though if partner has 3S and 1C, we can probably discard a S from hand in 6D on dummy s H.

[Cyberyeti]

apollo1201, on 2024-December-24, 16:17, said:

It (highly) dépends on whether 3H is forced or not, or on would partner bid 2H rather tjhan 2D with xx AKxxx Jxxx xx (add a black Q if you want).

Let s say we have no agreement. So we have to improvise.

We have to remark that partner went above 3NT despite not being sure of a fit. So they cannot be min min given they can afford to risk playing 4NT. With the lousy hand Cyber posted (even lousier as with 14 cards it is still not really exciting), you bid 3NT above a forced 3H. No other game except 4H should partner be fitted seems realsitic.

That being said, in that context, 4NT by opener is definitely a rejection of responder s suits. Lots of black honors and no fit / little fillers for red suits. We are not going anywhere.

Here we have a good hand but could be off one KC in H + a black suit loser. In 6D though if partner has 3S and 1C, we can probably discard a S from hand in 6D on dummy s H.

Sorry about the 14th card.

We need to know whether partner had a 2♥ bust available. If not then 4N doesn't exist, partner can easily hold a yarborough 5-5 or 5-6 and on that 5♦ could be the only game, but 4♥ could still be right even when partner doesn't realise that.

I agree with you that whether partner bids a positive with that hand is important, or xx, AJ10xx, Jxxx, Kx or if your suit positives require 2 of the top 3.