[jillybean]

This hand was sent to me by one of the players from our game.
These players typically have few agreements and have no option other than to jump to a game, somewhere.

I'm interested to hear how it's bid T-Walsh and other methods.

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Partner will next show a 4333 12 count. (15-17nt)

[mw64ahw]

Not quite sure how partner shows specifically a 4333 shape 12 count next?

I play T-Walsh, but in this case my auctions is similar to what you would play over a Weak NT
1♣ - 1♠ GI
1N Weak NT - 2♣ 5-card minor?
etc. hopefully ending in a ♣ /♠ or NT slam.

or if you play T-Walsh initially
1♣-1♥
1♠ (2/3)-3♣ GF
or
1♣-1♥
2♠ (4) - 3♥ splinter GT or SI

[mike777]

1S, if pard rebids 1NT, then 2D XYZ,
Planning on rebidding 3C as slam interest requesting cuebids

[jillybean]

mw64ahw, on 2024-December-18, 08:32, said:

Not quite sure how partner shows specifically a 4333 shape 12 count next?

He can't specifically show 4333 but over 1♠, will bid 2♠, over a transfer will show a minimum, with 4 spades if that's possible.

Quote

1S, if pard rebids 1NT, then 2D XYZ,
Planning on rebidding 3C as slam interest requesting cuebids

1♣:1♠
2♠

[mike777]

3c over 2S

Will be a tough low Hcp slam to bid with strong confidence... unfortunately

May at some point just leap to 6c

[mw64ahw]

In which case
1♣ - 1♠ GI
1N Weak NT - 2♣ 5-card minor?
2♦ No - 2♥ denies
2♠ 4♠ - 3♣ SI asks for 4-card minor? (or 4♣ cue setting ♠)
3N 4333 - 4♥ sets ♣ w. ♥ control, odd KCs, denying ♦ control
A minor suit can also also be set with 4m
After 3♣, 3♦ shows 44(32) and responder can ask for the 3-card minor if still looking for the minor suit slam

[jillybean]

mike777, on 2024-December-18, 09:06, said:

3c over 2S

Will be a tough low Hcp slam to bid with strong confidence... unfortunately

May at some point just leap to 6c

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[mike777]

jillybean, on 2024-December-18, 09:24, said:

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No 3D cue, surprised.
Probably 4S now sign off.

[jillybean]

mike777, on 2024-December-18, 09:36, said:

No 3D cue, surprised.
Probably 4S now sign off.

I can cue 3♦/3♣

[mikeh]

mike777, on 2024-December-18, 09:36, said:

No 3D cue, surprised.
Probably 4S now sign off.

Since most would play 3C as a game try….not (yet) a cuebid and definitely not (yet or later) a possible trump suit, 3D would not have been a cue. It would show either an advance cue (clarified by bidding again if responder tried to sign off in 3S) or an announcement that the 3C bid didn’t help but that opener has diamond values should that also be an area of concern. That meaning takes precedence over the advance cuebid, following the aphorism of game before slam.

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2024-December-18, 09:24, said:

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Since 3C is a game try, from opener’s perspective, opener has zero business bidding 3N. When a major suit fit is found, and partner makes what is ostensibly a game try (yes, we can see that is a slam try but opener dorpesnt know that yet),opener has several options.

1. Bid 3S. Minimum hand, club bid didn’t find much in opener’s hand.if resp9nder bid again, then 3C is retroactively a slam try

2. Bid 4S. Thiscannounces a hand somewhat encouraged by the club bid but denied any side aces.

3. Bid 3R or 4C. 3R is ambiguous…it may be rejecting the 3C game try but showing ‘help’ in the red suit and otherwise a maximum or it may be a cuebid….responder assumes the former but opener bids over a signoff in 3S. Note….some would play that opener bids 4R with the cuebid hand, but since opener hasn’t yet described his shape, I’d play that as a maximum acceptance and a splinter. 4C over 3C is a max, accepting the ostensible game try, cuebidding clubs and denying either red ace.

4. 3N…..has to be a maximum, since responder hasn’t shown more than an invitational hand. Anyone who bids 3N over 3C with a minimum should be shot.

[smerriman]

mikeh, on 2024-December-18, 12:06, said:

3R is ambiguous…it may be rejecting the 3C game try but showing ‘help’ in the red suit and otherwise a maximum or it may be a cuebid….responder assumes the former but opener bids over a signoff in 3S. Note….some would play that opener bids 4R with the cuebid hand, but since opener hasn’t yet described his shape, I’d play that as a maximum acceptance and a splinter.

4R by opener with the cuebid hand makes sense to me, since at some point the ambiguity can get out of hand. If an ambiguous 3♣ is followed by an ambiguous 3♥, then responder starts cuebidding, what now? Responder doesn't ever get to find out what 3♥ meant, while opener probably doesn't get to find out what 3♣ meant either since perhaps responder was just accepting the 3♥ invite and cuebidding along the way..

[mikeh]

smerriman, on 2024-December-18, 12:33, said:

4R with the cuebid hand makes sense to me, since at some point the ambiguity can get out of hand. If an ambiguous 3♣ is followed by an ambiguous 3♥, then responder starts cuebidding, what now? Responder doesn't ever get to find out what 3♥ meant, while opener probably doesn't get to find out what 3♣ meant either since perhaps responder was just accepting the 3♥ invite and cuebidding along the way..

Over 3R, responder clarifies his 3C bid. With an invite that likes the 3R, he bids 4S. Opener is limited by the 2S bid and thus responder definitely isn’t doing anything other than 3S or 4S if he just had invitational values.

So if he does ANYTHING other than 3S or 4S, he had a slam try for his 3C bid. The ambiguity you’re concerned about largely disappears….opener can sign off in 4S if his 3R wasn’t an advance cuebid…he’s shown an invitational hand that didn’t like the 3C bid but had something to offer in the red suit…

If he has a better hand, including one that grew up after responder’s second cue, then he cues again.

It may sound complicated but it seems to be pretty easy to handle these auctions in real life…obviously partner has to use the same ideas, but I think this is basic stuff at the expert level and should be also for advanced players.

Meanwhile, by using 4R as a cuebid, you lose the splinter, which can often be essential for slam valuation.

[smerriman]

Oops, yes, thanks, I realise my mistake now.

[P_Marlowe]

jillybean, on 2024-December-18, 08:57, said:

He can't specifically show 4333 but over 1♠, will bid 2♠, over a transfer will show a minimum, with 4 spades if that's possible.


1♣:1♠
2♠

Hi,

I would bid 2NT as a general game try, let partner describe his hand.
Obv. 3C is also a game try, hopefully showing club values.
... 3NT I dont understand.
As was already said, it has to be a max., it needs to be bal. and an offer
to play 3NT, i.e. he will need stopper in the reds, a possible option is
4333, but making the bid undiscussed is ...

Over 3NT, I will give it a last shot, by bidding 4H, denying a diamond
control.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[pescetom]

I realise that Italian methods are not mainstream (but then neither is T-Walsh yet) but we play 1♣-2♣ as a game force, despite the 1♣ opening being 2+ cards and a 2♣ response not guaranteeing clubs.
So this would start:

1♣ - 2♣
2♠ - 3♠
?

Now trumps are set, North is aware of the double fit and some extra strength in South and will bid a control, unless his spades suggest non-serious.

[mike777]

pescetom, on 2024-December-18, 16:17, said:

I realise that Italian methods are not mainstream (but then neither is T-Walsh yet) but we play 1♣-2♣ as a game force, despite the 1♣ opening being 2+ cards and a 2♣ response not guaranteeing clubs.
So this would start:

1♣ - 2♣
2♠ - 3♠
?

Now trumps are set, North is aware of the double fit and some extra strength in South and will bid a control, unless his spades suggest non-serious.

In your auction North is not aware of the double fit, North knows almost nothing other than South is gf and 4S and North has poor spade suit..
South knows North has 2clubs and 4S, that's all.

[jillybean]

Sorry, I was looking at the wrong hand when I bid 3N/3♣ multitasking before leaving for our last game 2024.
We have 100 registered and more on the waitlist for the January - March series. Busy!

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[Zelandakh]

That's a very nice 4333 12 count! Since I know you sometimes play a WNT, how about an auction like: 1NT - 2♠ (NT inv or ♣); 2NT (min) - 3♥ (5+♣4♠ SI); 4NT (4+♠3+♣ 2kc+♠Q) - 5♦ (K ask); 5♠ (no red K or ♣Q) - 6♣? Knowing about that third/sixth club is quite a big deal here.

[jillybean]

Zelandakh, on 2024-December-19, 00:47, said:

That's a very nice 4333 12 count! Since I know you sometimes play a WNT, how about an auction like: 1NT - 2♠ (NT inv or ♣); 2NT (min) - 3♥ (5+♣4♠ SI); 4NT (4+♠3+♣ 2kc+♠Q) - 5♦ (K ask); 5♠ (no red K or ♣Q) - 6♣? Knowing about that third/sixth club is quite a big deal here.

Yes. If this had been my hand we would have opened 1nt