[Ranmit]

MPs

Playing 2/1 system, as responder do you show 4-card spade before minor (of any length)? Should it be 1♠ or 2♣ here?
And how would you continue bidding if partner rebids a) 2♥ b) 3♥?

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[johnu]

Well, playing 2/1 you can't make a 2/1 response without a hand worth a game force. So, with the same distribution but say 8 HCP, you would respond 1♠.

With an actual game forcing hand, bid your longest suit first, so 2♣ on this hand. I would rebid 2♠ over 2♥, and 3♠ over 3♥.

[Stephen Tu]

johnu, on 2024-October-30, 19:01, said:

Well, playing 2/1 you can't make a 2/1 response without a hand worth a game force. So, with the same distribution but say 8 HCP, you would respond 1♠.

With a non-GF it's normal to respond 1s with like 4s5c, 2- hearts. But with 4s 6c and especially 4s 7c, it's very likely best to respond 1nt not 1s, because when you are 4117, partner will bid 1h-1s-2d a lot, and you are now hating life, because 3c would be 4th suit artificial game forcing, and you are stuck without being able to show your long club suit as an offer to play.
With a GF it's normal to bid longest suit first.

[jillybean]

2♣
then
3♣

If my partner rebids 3H/2C I will be finding a new partner.

[mike777]

1. 2C over 1H
2. 3C over 2H rebid
3. 4D cue agreeing hearts if pard jump rebids 3H. My hand is huge,thinking grand..

[mw64ahw]

2♥ is one of those bids it is worth clarifying
a) min.
b) 6♥
c) 4♠ how I play
d) other?

[smerriman]

jillybean, on 2024-October-30, 20:58, said:

If my partner rebids 3H/2C I will be finding a new partner.

That seems a bit odd. Jump rebids by opener are very useful, even if they're rare. Having it completely undefined doesn't seem wise.

[mw64ahw]

smerriman, on 2024-October-31, 01:55, said:

That seems a bit odd. Jump rebids by opener are very useful, even if they're rare. Having it completely undefined doesn't seem wise.

Self-sustaining suit with extras for me

[jillybean]

You are right, partner could hold

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Don;t people open these 2♣ now a days?

[mw64ahw]

jillybean, on 2024-October-31, 06:39, said:

You are right, partner could hold

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Don;t people open these 2♣ now a days?

and with
Kx
AQJxxxx
KQx
x

[jillybean]

Yes , it's possible, we had 2 hands that contained 2 x 3♦ and 2x 5♥ cards, same color backs yesterday.
Dealing machine - operator error

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North's hand isn't a jump rebid over a gf 2♣ (anything) for me.

[mike777]

Agree solid heart suit plus more at minimum for jump rebids in this example

[Ranmit]

Thanks all! This is helpful; I see the consensus for bidding longest suit first in gf auctions, which makes sense.

Still not sure about the continuation though - we play 1H-2c-2H as minimum, default response and 1H-2c-3H as 15+ pts, 6+H.
(Happy to hear if you disagree with this, and have an alternate system to differentiate opener's hands after 2/1 GF)

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So after 1♥ 2♣ 3♥, bidding 3♠ would possibly lead to 3NT 4♣ 5♣, and then how do we explore whether it is slam or grandslam? (we are beyond Keycard ask to find Qc). On the other hand, bidding 1♥ 2♣ 3♥ 4♣ might miss a 4-4 spade fit (preferable at MPs).

[mike777]

Object not a 3H rebid in 2/1.
Simply rebid 2H.

[mike777]

So start
1H-2c
2H-3C
4C-slam interest opener has extras.

[mike777]

Solid long hearts plus more.
Rare bid after 2/1 start.

If your concern is opener has hearts and spades how do they show it in 2/1
The answer is many different viewpoints.. 😊

[jillybean]

Ranmit, on 2024-October-31, 08:58, said:

So you would say that 3H rebid should necessarily imply 7+ Hearts, and extra points?

For me, Yes. Self sufficient suit plus extras. It should set trump and ask partner to cue.

I used it playing std, can’t recall having deployed it since switching to 2/1

[mw64ahw]

Ranmit, on 2024-October-31, 08:38, said:

Still not sure about the continuation though - we play 1H-2c-2H as minimum, default response and 1H-2c-3H as 15+ pts, 6+H.
(Happy to hear if you disagree with this, and have an alternate system to differentiate opener's hands after 2/1

You could try this approach
https://bridgewinner...us-2c-response/

[mikeh]

There are times, such as on reading this thread, that I despair of ever contributing again.

I see all kinds of frankly bizarre suggestions. The OP is looking for what are actually very basic concepts.

Firstly, I do agree with everyone who observed that with 4 spades, longer clubs, and gf values the correct response is 2C. That’s about as basic as it gets and it’s correct in any natural method, including non 2/1 methods. Standard American and similar methods also use 2C then 2S (a reverse, so gf even if 2C were not gf) to show 4+ spades, longer clubs and game+ values.

Then I see suggestions that 3H shows 7+ hearts. Makes me want to bang my head against the nearest wall. Or that people should open 2C with xxx AKQ10xxx KQJ void. More head-banging looms. Wtf?????

Now, as for 1H 2C 3H I’m not saying the normal 2/1 approach is universal. But in the circles in which I play 3H shows a no loser 6+ heart suit….absolutely not AQJxxxx….and about a King or more than the 1H bid promised. One is consuming bidding space…a concept few below the expert level seem to even dimly grasp…in a completely unobstructed game force sequence, so the bid should be (a) rare and (b) closely constrained. Moreover, it becomes very difficult for responder to show or deny a missing honour if 3H might not show a solid suit. Most (all of my acquaintance with whom I’ve discussed it) say ‘3H sets trump….even the stiff deuce is good support….let’s go slam hunting if one’s hand outside of hearts….known to be no loser….is suitable’.

The next question that every serious or improving player needs to discuss with partner is ‘how many hearts does 1H 2C 2H show’.

There is NO ‘right’ answer, but there are two main schools of thought and a number of idiosyncratic treatments. Let’s ignore the latter….they require specific agreement and always contain potential issues that require significant additional discussion and none of them are remotely close to ‘standard’.

So the two schools of thought. 2H promises 6+. The default rebid with any 5332 minimum opening bid is 2N

Pro: ensures that responder can agree on hearts with a doubleton. Con: responder will often bid some number of notrump, leaving opener on play with a hopeless holding in the suit they lead. Imagine you have 9 quick winners but one suit is Kx opposite xxx. Would you rather play from Kx….can’t go down…or xxx…need luck?

2H doesn’t promise extra length, could be Jxxxx! 2N, instead, promises some values in both unbid suits. Pro: avoids the silly wrong-siding of notrump. Con…it can be near-impossible to find out whether one has an eight as opposed to a seven card heart fit.

There is, imo, no ‘right’ answer. Personally I play the second style but good friends of mine, experts, play the former. As it happens, in my main partnership we pkay a strange system that avoids these problems, but at the cost of additional complexity so I’m not going to discuss further.


Next…1H 2C 2H (whether 5+ or 6+) 2S. Basic bridge. All good players not playing their own weird artificial bids agree that this shows 4+ spades and longer clubs.

Let me add one clarification. Some pairs, I play in one, will consider responding 2C on 4=4 blacks. Why? Because 1H 1S 2H or 1H 1S 2D are awkward auctions since responder has no convenient natural gf. Say you are 4=3=2=4…1H 1S 2H…..how do you make a forcing raise in hearts, especially if you have even mild interest in slam? But I digress…I’m straying into an esoteric area. For the purposes of this discussion, 2C then 2S shows 4+ spades and longer clubs, with game going (or better) values.

Why do I say 4+ spades? Because, while rare, one can pick up 5 spades, 6 clubs and a good hand. Bid 2C then bid spades twice. Every time you rebid spades you say two things….the first rebid…so the second spade bid…shows an ‘extra’ spade….and because 2C promised longer spades than clubs (in mainstream bidding) showing a fifth spade also shows at least 6 clubs!


With the hand given….Axx AK10xxx KQ xx opposite KJ10x J A AK10xxxx

1H 2C 2H. The hand is strong enough for 3H but the heart suit is far too weak. Make it Axx AKQ10xx Kx xx and I’d do it, while inwardedly unhappy about the missing heart J.

1H 2C 2H 2S

If 2H promised 6+, I can bid a ‘waiting’ 2N, confident that partner can and will show me his doubleton heart if he has it…he is no flatter than 4=2=2=5 so raising 2N would be silly

If 2H were ambiguous on heart length, I’d bid 3H, not liking it because I am going to be torn over 3N…I think I have to bid 4N because I have an ace more than I’ve shown.

As it is, responder has a huge hand and needs to show his shape and power, so bids 4C over 3H and 3C over 2N….both show at least 6 clubs and doubt about either level or strain or both. (Btw, it’s common, if not universal, to play that 1H 2C 2H 2S 2N 4C shows a no loser 6+ club suit and some extras… a very useful thing for slam bidding)

The auctions diverge at that point, depending on opener’s rebid, but all auctions should get to slam….probably 6C, second choice 6N, third choice 6H (if opener shows extras with 6 heaets, that stiff heart jack gains in significance, but I’d rate getting to hearts as unlikely).

The internet is both great and horrible for offering advice on issues such as these. It’s great because one can hope to ask questions and get informed answers. It’s horrible because, to someone not far advanced in the game, it can be very difficult to know whose advice to trust. Obviously that could apply to my advice😀


But I doubt you’ll find anyone here prepared to argue with what I’ve written above. Oh…if any grand makes, don’t worry about missing it. None of the possible grands are ‘good’ in that you need luck in at least one suit. Never worry about missing borderline grands.

[Ranmit]

Thanks for your detailed post!!

mikeh, on 2024-October-31, 13:03, said:

But in the circles in which I play 3H shows a no loser 6+ heart suit….absolutely not AQJxxxx….and about a King or more than the 1H bid promised. One is consuming bidding space…a concept few below the expert level seem to even dimly grasp…in a completely unobstructed game force sequence, so the bid should be (a) rare and (b) closely constrained.


With the hand given…

1H 2C 2H. The hand is strong enough for 3H but the heart suit is far too weak.

I understand what you mean by using the jump 3H only in rare occasions since it consumes too much bidding space. But I suppose the counter argument could be that the 2♥ bid then hardly describes anything? For instance, with the same opener hand, if responder had a minimum hand as in the following, wouldnt he directly bid 4♥ over 2♥, and then opener does not know whether to ask for key cards with the xx in clubs? - Something that could be avoided if 3H is available to show opener's stronger hands? (EDIT: As Smerriman points out, I am probably wrong in assuming that responder should jump to 4H here. Feel free to ignore this!)

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So if I understand you correctly, you are saying that the hands where it would be useful differentiating 2H vs 3H on the basis of opener's strength, are less likely than hands where there could be problems introduced by the consumption of bidding space?

Many thanks again!!

mikeh, on 2024-October-31, 13:03, said:

It’s horrible because, to someone not far advanced in the game, it can be very difficult to know whose advice to trust.

True - but at my level I think any advice is helpful! I would much rather get advice (and eventually work out that it is not great) than have people not responding in the fear that their advice may not be great .