[thepossum]

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Match points. Considered just bidding 6

Any scientific methods of finding the right slam and which one? - although (hint) any slam is good

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

you are allowed to play p for one useful card, as far as I see it,
you need 2 cards to make it, and KQ in diamonds may not even help you
at all, which may not be obvious for p.

I would start with a T/O and follow up with 5H, this should get the
message across.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[thepossum]

Thx, I went with a cue bid and sadly was passed at the 5 level of something - I even missed the club slam - sadly the club response to the cue bid did not suggest enough for slam - the only people who made the heart slam bid it immediately - the only person who made the club slam bid hearts after the cue and was then corrected to 6 clubs. All missed the 3 grands on offer

But a simple heart overcall didn't cut it either (sadly nor did being left in 5) - will post the hand in a bit for anyone interested - maybe other comments will appear first

Is there nothing like pick a slam or anything. 5NT etc I was impressed with my favorite goto software which by itself found 7 clubs - but East did not up the ante

[P_Marlowe]

thepossum, on 2024-September-27, 00:26, said:

Thx, I went with a cue bid and sadly was passed at the 5 level of something - I even missed the club slam - sadly the club response to the cue bid did not suggest enough for slam - the only people who made the heart slam bid it immediately - the only person who made the club slam bid hearts after the cue and was then corrected to 6 clubs. All missed the 3 grands on offer

But a simple heart overcall didn't cut it either

The meaning of the Cue is ..., I would assume, that most would treat it as 2-suited, but it is not clear,
if this is so, and if yes, what kind of 2-suited hand.
Depending on system (not B/I) stuff, you have various ways to show 2-suited hands, and ...

The auction after a T/O will still be messy, i.e. blasting is not the worst idea.
It is a matter of how agressive you are, how sad you will feel, if you miss the slam compared, how sad you
will, if you go minus. I prefer to go plus, maybe too much, i.e. I will not the slam, if I have a chance to ask p
for help, ..., sometimes he cant help me in a sensible way, I may still try to ask for help.

[thepossum]

P_Marlowe, on 2024-September-27, 00:37, said:

The meaning of the Cue is ..., I would assume, that most would treat it as 2-suited, but it is not clear,
if this is so, and if yes, what kind of 2-suited hand.
Depending on system (not B/I) stuff, you have various ways to show 2-suited hands, and ...

The auction after a T/O will still be messy, i.e. blasting is not the worst idea.
It is a matter of how agressive you are, how sad you will feel, if you miss the slam compared, how sad you
will, if you go minus. I prefer to go plus, maybe too much, i.e. I will not the slam, if I have a chance to ask p
for help, ..., sometimes he cant help me in a sensible way, I may still try to ask for help.

I had no idea but figured 4 spades was very forcing - was sad - I got 5 clubs then advanced to 5 hearts and ...

Those who doubled, received clubs then corrected to hearts raised to club slam - something at least - it was just disappointing being in 5+2 with most of the field in 4+3

[P_Marlowe]

A final though: If the holding of p minor suits would be reversed, would slam still make?

[DavidKok]

This is definitely in the wrong forum. This is a difficult problem, and scientific gadgets after a preempt are a challenging topic. That being said I'll bite and share what I play here, in the spoiler below. It's long.

Spoiler

On competitive auctions I believe in "strain before level" and "game before slam". Finding your best trump suit is extremely valuable, while diagnosing the right level to play at is often more difficult and at any rate can only be done accurately once you know the degree of fit. And often it doesn't even matter whether your 5-over-5 was to make or a sacrifice - if you have a sufficient fit or double fit the bid was correct anyway.
I've recently added "no grand slams in competition" to my list - they're just too rare and need a huge degree of confidence to be worth bidding on balance. We will almost never have the ability to exchange enough information in a competitive auction to get that confidence, and I think it makes sense to scrap gadgets that look for grand slams in competition.

So based on all the above, on the auction (2♠)-P-(3♠)-?, I play:

• Pass: Any weak hand.
  
• X: Takeout, does not promise four hearts (but no special agreements, i.e. not a "thrump double"). Contains hands too strong for an immediate bid, as well as flexible hands (three-suiters and specific two-suiters with length disparity).
  
• 3NT: Any hand that wants to play 3NT, either balanced 16-21 ish or unbalanced with a source of tricks and a stopper.
  
• 4♣: Nonleaping Michaels - gameforcing 5(+)♣5(+)♥. Does not promise a strong hand, starts at a good 11-count or so.
  
• 4♦: Nonleaping Michaels - gameforcing 5(+)♦5(+)♥. Does not promise a strong hand, starts at a good 11-count or so.
  
• 4♥: To play, 5(+)♥, approximately 12-21 ish.
  
• 4♠: Nonleaping Michaels - gameforcing 5(+)♦5(+)♣. Stronger than 4NT, i.e. shows at least mild slam interest.
  
• 4NT: Unusual 4NT(?) - gameforcing 5(+)♦5(+)♣. Weaker than 4♠, i.e. denies slam interest.
  
• 5♣: To play, (6)7(+)♣, approximately 12-21 ish.
  
• 5♦: To play, (6)7(+)♦, approximately 12-21 ish.

The choice to play NLM here means single-suited minor hands struggle and have to make an offshape t/o double (hoping partner can bid 3NT), bid 3NT themselves (with a spade stopper) or jump to 5m. In return it also means that the direct 4♥ is more often a single-suiter.
I don't have special agreements about the jumps to 5♥ and above, which translates to:

• 5♥: -
  
• 5♠: - (perhaps pick-a-slam with first round spade control, typically a void, but this goes against my new "no grand slam in competition" rule)
  
• 5NT: Pick-a-slam. Three-suited or two-suited (intending to pull the wrong choice, which must not be hearts).
  
• 6♣: To play.
  
• 6♦: To play.
  
• 6♥: To play.
  
• 6♠: -
  
• 6NT: To play. Typically a stopper and a source of outside tricks.
  
• 7♣+: -

Now the more complicated part: double-then-bid-again. Traditionally this shows a hand too strong for a direct bid. Personally I think it is better to instead use this for flexible hands, though many very strong hands are also quite flexible. What's more, we currently do not have the agreement that double-then-bid-again is about flexibility - what we play is more standard. But let me show the idea anyway. In keeping with "strain before level" and "game before slam" I am reasonably comfortable underbidding with strong single-suited hands, which frees up double-then-bid for two-suiters where we want partner to pick again. For example
(2♠)-P-(3♠)-X;
(P)-4♦-(P)-4♥
traditionally shows a hand too strong for a 4♥ overcall, but I think instead it is more useful to play this as a takeout hand with 4♥5(+)♣ offering a choice of game.
In this approach the really strong hands suffer a lot. There is practically no way to bid them, and you'll just have to blast game or slam and make your peace with what happens. That being said there is room to define jump bids, or double-then-jump, as specific hands with a slam interest. I don't have this agreement, and as you can see above a lot of my jump bids are currently left idle, but you could invent or insert a gadget here. Just keep in mind that you'll face far more choice-of-game decisions and competitive decisions regarding degree of fit than you'll have slam probes, and competitive auctions are already plenty hard. I play similar methods to the above on a wide range of auctions, which helps reduce the memory load and avoids nasty misunderstandings. Having a misunderstanding about hand strength is (somewhat) recoverable, having a misunderstanding about hand shape or which suits are shown is typically fatal.

[thepossum]

DavidKok, on 2024-September-27, 01:34, said:

This is definitely in the wrong forum. This is a difficult problem, and scientific gadgets after a preempt are a challenging topic. That being said I'll bite and share what I play here, in the spoiler below. It's long.

Sorry I post in the forum people think I belong

On another subject. Maybe a rule change should 5+2 not score higher than 4+3 seems unfair

The beginner approach should be to assess and blast 6 hearts

Spoiler

It's late and will read in the morning

[thepossum]

Strange
I went to get the hand but that tourney's hands are missing. Only yesterday too

From memory my partner had 3 spades, 1 heart, 4 diamonds and 5 clubs with around 8 points. Enough for 3 grand slams anyway �� not that you would bid them of course but 6 clubs and hearts were definitely there to bid

I think west had 7 points and east 4. East's bid was rather questionable but very preemptive

Everyone in the field managed 13 tricks without too advanced play:)

Unless I can find the hand I can't recollect much more detail or anyone able to critique what I say it seems to be one tourney type records missing

Rather pessimistic update. While I have been assured the missing hands are being moved to a new system I fear the worst