[nullve]

awm, on 2024-February-26, 10:56, said:

1. If responder has a weak three-suiter short in spades, you lose substantially playing this,

Yes, since you respond 1N to 1♠

awm, on 2024-February-25, 04:12, said:

if willing to pass any rebid (short spades).

It's nice to be able to do that.

[pescetom]

DavidKok, on 2024-February-26, 16:41, said:

The book "Eric Rodwell's Bidding Topics" by Eric Rodwell claims so at the start of the first chapter.

I edited it somewhat as the images of auctions don't copy well, but I'm sure you get the idea.

Thanks
'Bloom obstinance double' would have intrigued generations of new players.

[Shugart23]

awm, on 2024-February-27, 01:51, said:

There are two main reasons why people put the 5M-332 hands into 1♦:

Even if you do put the 5M-332 hands into 1♦, I don't think it makes sense to respond to 1♦ with three-card majors. Yes, this helps you find the 5-3 fit when opener has 5M-332, but it's far more common that opener has some (4432) or (4333) hand where responding in this way makes it hard to locate your 4-4 major fits (or forces you to play a lot of 4-3 major fits).

You are probably right; (this was never an issue in MICS).....Just thinking, and not too deeply, and assuming Responder is weak , say 6 -9/10

Case I The weak 5M332 is thrown into the 1D bid ... I open 1D and you respond with 1M (showing 3+)....I raise to show you found my weak 5M332 hand else I bid 1NT showing weak 4432 or 4333 or 5332 but not 5 or your 3 card Major...(assuming I have a weak balanced hand and not a Diamond suit)....So, we may end up playing 1NT , having a 4-4 Major fit.

Case 2 The weak 5M332 is not thrown in the 1D bid. So then the bidding goes : 1D - 1M -( showing 4+) - and then I either bid 1NT or raise your Major if I too have 4 cards in your major

So it seems like some of the difference between Case I and Case II are :
1) at times in Case I, you may be playing 1NT with a 4-4 Major fit when in Case II you would be playing 2M , where in both cases the opponents probably have more HCP than your partnership does.
2) Case I can result in a different score than most of the other pairs playing in the room - might be a good board or a bad board. Need someone to run the simulation!
3) Case I seems to have the advantage of giving more clarity to what the opening of 1M means seeing as it must be 6+ in the suit or a 2 suited 5+/4+ hand.
4) In Case II, Opener may end up rebidding a short suit with a weak 5M332 hand, whilst Responder doesn't know if it is a 2 or 3 card suit or 4+

Not really seeing where you end up playing a 4-3 fit, though

[straube]

Shugart23, on 2024-February-27, 06:32, said:

may end up rebidding a short suit with a weak 5M332 hand, whilst Responder doesn't know if it is a 2 or 3 card suit or 4+

Not really seeing where you end up playing a 4-3 fit, though

Adam is saying that even if you do put 5M332 into 1D, you shouldn't respond with a 3M or partner will raise with 4 and then you have your 4-3 fit. Adam (like most of the rest of us) is trying to find 4-4 major suit fits and occasional 4-3 major suit fits when it's opener who has the 3M.

[Shugart23]

straube, on 2024-February-27, 09:22, said:

Adam is saying that even if you do put 5M332 into 1D, you shouldn't respond with a 3M or partner will raise with 4 and then you have your 4-3 fit. Adam (like most of the rest of us) is trying to find 4-4 major suit fits and occasional 4-3 major suit fits when it's opener who has the 3M.

.
No, I wouldn't raise with 4. My rebid is 1NT If responder is weak as well, it may very well be a top board given the opponents have more HCP than us

BTW, I don't necessarily think this is a good idea, but it seems worth thinking on. If Responder had a good hand (invitational strength or better), there's probably a way to find the 4-4 fit, if there is one...Maybe he does some kind of Stayman or XYZ type bid to explore

If we consider that we all open 1NT with 4432 and 4333 hands and where responder has a 4 card Major but no great HCP, he is going to pass. SO it is very frequent that we all play 1NT where there is a 4-4 Major fit...

[straube]

I understand. I think this has veered off-topic though. Adam answered your question, but his post is about a structure to handle limited 5-card major openings.

[Shugart23]

straube, on 2024-February-27, 10:27, said:

I understand. I think this has veered off-topic though. Adam answered your question, but his post is about a structure to handle limited 5-card major openings.

Possibly , is veering not allowed? Although I think I have been discussing a possible structure on how to handle a limited 5-card Major opening, as opposed to the one he presented (which I have no disagreement with btw)

[foobar]

awm, on 2024-February-25, 04:12, said:

After 1♠-2♣, we use relays when responder has a GF. If responder has the heart invite and wants to possibly get out in a partial, he breaks the relay after opener's rebid. Note that opener's rebids 2♠+ establish a GF in any case. The immediate rebids are:

1♠-2♣:
... 2♦ = 4+♣ or spade one suiter without shortness; includes 5044 but not 5404
... 2♥ = 4+♦, includes 5440
... 2♠ = 6+♠ single-suited and shortness somewhere
... 2NT+ = 4+♥; includes 5404 but not 5440

What is the complete scheme over 2N+? One way to do it might be 2N is LL, 3♣ = high short, 3♦ = 5422, 3♥ = 5431, etc., with 5440 at the tail end?

[awm]

1♠ - 2♣:

2NT = 5+/5+ majors or 5404
3♣ = high (diamond) shortage with 5+♠ and 4♥n (not 5404)
3♦ = 5422
3♥ = 5431
3♠ = 6421
3NT = 6430
4♣ = 7420

1♠-2♣-2NT-3♣:

3♦ = high (diamond) shortage
3♥ = 5404
3♠ = 5521
3NT = 5530
4♣ = 6511
4♦ = 6520

If we have the sequence through 2NT where opener's second suit is a minor (1♠-2♣-2♦-2♥-2NT or 1♠-2♣-2♥-2♠-2NT) then we need to also include 5M-6m hands which pushes things up a little:

3♦ = high shortage or 5M-6m-11
3♥ = 5440
3♠ = 5521
3NT = 5530
4♣ = 6M-5m-1-1
4♦ = 5M-6m-2-0
4♥ = 6M-5m-2-0