[thepossum]

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IMPs (!!!!) tourney

1. Do you pass now and think about competing against a spade game
2. Do you bid diamonds now and think about competing against a spade game
3. Do you pass now and not bid again
4. Oops other options such as double now and get into trouble later

By way of full and honest disclosure I did the the 1st followed by 3rd but spent ages contemplating bidding 5 diamonds

What do you reckon brains trust

Another case of "could have been champions"

[LBengtsson]

If the opps. opened 3♠ you would be doubling with this hand, so X would be my bid here. What I do not like is that it is ace less, and it is a minimum count point, but the suits have good intermediates, and the shape is good. If the opps. are allowed to muscle in on auctions like this with preempts where they are left to play without you competing, then you will not win in the long run.

X could be a disaster, but its a bidder's game, and you have to be bold to win at this game. 'Pass' never entered my head.

[Cyberyeti]

LBengtsson, on 2023-February-16, 07:39, said:

If the opps. opened 3♠ you would be doubling with this hand, so X would be my bid here. What I do not like is that it is ace less, and it is a minimum count point, but the suits have good intermediates, and the shape is good. If the opps. are allowed to muscle in on auctions like this with preempts where they are left to play without you competing, then you will not win in the long run.

X could be a disaster, but its a bidder's game, and you have to be bold to win at this game. 'Pass' never entered my head.

We have specific agreements about doubles like this that they're done on shape, and don't show extras

[helene_t]

I won't bid 4♦ on a 3-card suit (maybe if we play Walsh? But even then I am not convinced). I also think the hand is a tad too weak for 4♦. It will lead to too many bad slams.

Double is fine with this shape but again I would need a stronger hand. Doesn't have to have much more HCPs but a couple of aces would be nice.

I pass and if partner can double it's a tough call between 4♥ and 4♦. Probably 4♦, partner can still suggest 4♥.

If partner is quiet and opps bid 4♠ I probably won't bid again but it depends what a double by partner would have meant. If it would have been penalty, it is probably ok to balance with 4NT since 4♠ should make if partner can't double it.

[mikeh]

Don’t any of you guys play with partners?

You’ve got a rock bottom, aceless wonder of an opening hand.

Wtf do you think your partner will do if you own this hand, whether you pass and LHO bids 4S or you pass and LHO passes?

David, if your double merely says ‘I have a very bad opening bid but can’t stand letting them play’, wtf do you do with a good hand?

Bear in mind that parter bid 1D. It which universe does 1D promise that we belong in game or slam opposite a partially fitting, aceless minimum?

I must live a charmed life. My partners play me for an opening bid when I open. They don’t infer that I have LESS than this if I pass. And they know what to do to show me that they have a good hand….depending on what type of hand, they double, bid 3N, bid a suit at the 4 level (non-forcing if a minor, gf if they reverse, slamming if they cuebid)

Yes, we have a stiff spade. Big whoop!

Yes, 3S is said to be ‘weak’. Strangely, it being weak doesn’t mean LHO isn’t sitting there with a fair hand, wrong shape to have bid over 1C. And if LHO has a weak hand, guess what partner has?

Personally, I’m quite happy to let partner make the next decision, especially after I make a pass

In fact, this isn’t even close to a minimum pass, in terms of hcp, and the only real mild surprise for partner is the short spade. If LHO bids 4S partner will likely infer that holding.

If he doubles 4S, I have an easy 4N, takeout. If he doubles 3S, I have an easy 4D.

Ok, if he has say xx Jx AQxxxx Qxx I’ve missed a good save. (Edit: tho they probably don’t make unless the minors are both 3-1) Meanwhile, on all those hands on which I hold extras and spade shortness, partner can be aggressive after my double, knowing I have a decent hand

Doubling here is chasing moonbeams. Maybe you’ll catch one this time. Of course, having doubled and seeing it work this time is likely to cost far more, in the long run, since from now on partner can’t trust you to have your values. He’ll think that you think that 1C P 1D creates a force to the 4=level.

Sorry for the rant! I guess my age is showing��

[Cyberyeti]

mikeh, on 2023-February-16, 09:39, said:

Don’t any of you guys play with partners?

You’ve got a rock bottom, aceless wonder of an opening hand.

Wtf do you think your partner will do if you own this hand, whether you pass and LHO bids 4S or you pass and LHO passes?

David, if your double merely says ‘I have a very bad opening bid but can’t stand letting them play’, wtf do you do with a good hand?

Bear in mind that parter bid 1D. It which universe does 1D promise that we belong in game or slam opposite a partially fitting, aceless minimum?

I must live a charmed life. My partners play me for an opening bid when I open. They don’t infer that I have LESS than this if I pass. And they know what to do to show me that they have a good hand….depending on what type of hand, they double, bid 3N, bid a suit at the 4 level (non-forcing if a minor, gf if they reverse, slamming if they cuebid)

Yes, we have a stiff spade. Big whoop!

Yes, 3S is said to be ‘weak’. Strangely, it being weak doesn’t mean LHO isn’t sitting there with a fair hand, wrong shape to have bid over 1C. And if LHO has a weak hand, guess what partner has?

Personally, I’m quite happy to let partner make the next decision, especially after I make a pass

In fact, this isn’t even close to a minimum pass, in terms of hcp, and the only real mild surprise for partner is the short spade. If LHO bids 4S partner will likely infer that holding.

If he doubles 4S, I have an easy 4N, takeout. If he doubles 3S, I have an easy 4D.

Ok, if he has say xx Jx AQxxxx Qxx I’ve missed a good save. (Edit: tho they probably don’t make unless the minors are both 3-1) Meanwhile, on all those hands on which I hold extras and spade shortness, partner can be aggressive after my double, knowing I have a decent hand

Doubling here is chasing moonbeams. Maybe you’ll catch one this time. Of course, having doubled and seeing it work this time is likely to cost far more, in the long run, since from now on partner can’t trust you to have your values. He’ll think that you think that 1C P 1D creates a force to the 4=level.

Sorry for the rant! I guess my age is showing��

This is nothing like rock bottom minimum opener, I have some nice intermediates, we'd open this shape with 10-11 points and no intermediates.

The hand with short spades needs to act, what do you expect partner with xxxx, Axx, AQxxx, x to do next ? You are only ♣AQxx(x) over the K off 3♠ and 4♦ both making (or one making the other -1).

Is there a danger partner bids 5♦ with that hand, yes, but what does he do if you pass ? Also 5♦-1 may still pick you up 3 IMPs.

This is a particular issue playing 2+ card club and strong NT as partner with 4 clubs has no guarantee of a fit opposite a weak no trump so xxxx, Jx, QJ10x, Axxx is a guaranteed pass when you could well be making 4♣ and they will make 3♠

[jillybean]

My first reaction was Pass. Now I'll read Mike's explanation on why anything else is nuts.
I'm not ashamed of my opening but it's damn close to rock bottom.

[mikeh]

Cyberyeti, on 2023-February-16, 11:13, said:

This is nothing like rock bottom minimum opener, I have some nice intermediates, we'd open this shape with 10-11 points and no intermediates.

The hand with short spades needs to act, what do you expect partner with xxxx, Axx, AQxxx, x to do next ? You are only ♣AQxx(x) over the K off 3♠ and 4♦ both making (or one making the other -1).

Is there a danger partner bids 5♦ with that hand, yes, but what does he do if you pass ? Also 5♦-1 may still pick you up 3 IMPs.

This is a particular issue playing 2+ card club and strong NT as partner with 4 clubs has no guarantee of a fit opposite a weak no trump so xxxx, Jx, QJ10x, Axxx is a guaranteed pass when you could well be making 4♣ and they will make 3♠

When I say this is a minimum, I am speaking in terms of standard methods. In my partnerships this isn’t a minimum, but it sure as heck isn’t ‘extras’.

Also, while I know there are a lot of players who bid up the line, I don’t and won’t ever respond 1D with 4 hearts, even with 5+ diamonds (unless I had gf values and was planning to show or ask for hearts later).

As for coming up with hands on which your preferred action succeeds, that’s exactly the wrong way to argue bridge bidding.

How about partner holding Qxx xxx Axxxx xx? LHO passed 1C because, with xx AJxx Qxx AQxx he felt that he had no bid.

How do you want to lose your imps? Defending 3S doubled? Or playing in 4m doubled?

A simulation might help but I doubt it. I’d have difficulty setting constraints. How sound is weak? AKJxxxx xx Jx xx….is that wrong or ok? If we generate good hands for LHO, we will get hands where reasonable people disagree about the initial pass. Plus if we simulate the effect of opener doubling 3S, reasonable people can disagree about the rest of the auction. And so on.

[Cyberyeti]

mikeh, on 2023-February-16, 11:49, said:

When I say this is a minimum, I am speaking in terms of standard methods. In my partnerships this isn’t a minimum, but it sure as heck isn’t ‘extras’.

Also, while I know there are a lot of players who bid up the line, I don’t and won’t ever respond 1D with 4 hearts, even with 5+ diamonds (unless I had gf values and was planning to show or ask for hearts later).

As for coming up with hands on which your preferred action succeeds, that’s exactly the wrong way to argue bridge bidding.

How about partner holding Qxx xxx Axxxx xx? LHO passed 1C because, with xx AJxx Qxx AQxx he felt that he had no bid.

How do you want to lose your imps? Defending 3S doubled? Or playing in 4m doubled?

A simulation might help but I doubt it. I’d have difficulty setting constraints. How sound is weak? AKJxxxx xx Jx xx….is that wrong or ok? If we generate good hands for LHO, we will get hands where reasonable people disagree about the initial pass. Plus if we simulate the effect of opener doubling 3S, reasonable people can disagree about the rest of the auction. And so on.

I don't think you're doubled in 4♦ on that hand, it could be making an overtrick.

It's a difficult one to simulate, I agree, but also you then have to decide if they bid on or double.

[thepossum]

Here is the hand. Not world teams level players and maybe bidding but what do you think

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It was almost flat but 5D-1 was where I could have been

Would be good to know how good players would respond to a double

[Cyberyeti]

thepossum, on 2023-February-16, 15:10, said:

Here is the hand. Not world teams level players and maybe bidding but what do you think

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It was almost flat but 5D-1 was where I could have been

Would be good to know how good players would respond to a double

If you double, partner will bid 5♦ over 4♠, but not sure they'll bid 6♦ over 5♠.

[akwoo]

Unless I'm mentoring a near beginner, a partner who doesn't bid 5D over 4S with that hand, without a double from me, had better change their ways or no longer be my partner.

[jillybean]

Robots

[nullve]

Me:

Quote

What do you think of the bidding on the following deal

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ChatGPT:

Quote

As an AI language model, I don't have opinions, but I can analyze the bidding and provide some insights. Here's my analysis of the bidding:

West opened the bidding with 1 club, showing a 3+ card club suit and 11-21 high card points (HCP) with 12-22 total points.
North made a one-over-one bid with 1 diamond, showing at least a 4-card diamond suit and 6+ total points.
East made an aggressive weak jump overcall with 3 spades, showing at least a 6-card spade suit, 10+ HCP, and 3+ total points.
South passed, as they did not have a strong enough hand to bid.
West bid 4 spades, indicating at least a 5-card spade suit and 16+ total points.
North and East both passed, and the final contract became 4 spades.
Looking at the distribution of the hands, it appears that 4 spades can be made with careful play. There are some potential losers in diamonds and hearts, but the spade suit provides plenty of tricks to make up for that. Specifically, declarer needs to win the opening lead of the diamond 3 in hand, draw trumps, and then take the heart finesse. If the heart finesse wins, declarer can discard their remaining diamond on the ace of hearts and take the rest of the tricks. If the heart finesse loses, declarer can still make the contract by winning any return and taking the rest of the tricks with their spade suit.

Overall, the bidding and the resulting contract of 4 spades seem reasonable given the hands involved.

[helene_t]

North should obviously bid 5d and w might well bid 5sp then. I think ns will then let the 5 level belong to opps.

Playing with a robot you often have to bid partner's hand but in this case, taking any action as South goes too far.

You could try 4nt, it might well be passed out and 7 down undoubted is good bridge.

[thepossum]

nullve, on 2023-February-16, 16:45, said:

Me:

ChatGPT:

[thepossum]

helene_t, on 2023-February-16, 17:22, said:

North should obviously bid 5d and w might well bid 5sp then. I think ns will then let the 5 level belong to opps.

Playing with a robot you often have to bid partner's hand but in this case, taking any action as South goes too far.

You could try 4nt, it might well be passed out and 7 down undoubted is good bridge.

It was difficult knowing how to progress safely with my regular partner
I am sure I would have doubled with a human
I almost psyched 5D at the end as the top scorer managed

Whenever I ask anything in these forums is how to bid a hand at least at Intermediate to Advanced level with a half decent human partner

Perhaps at favourable vulnerability I would have risked more

One unfortunate had North bid 4NT-10 - not thrown in either

[the hog]

"If the opps. opened 3♠ you would be doubling with this hand"However they did not open. I agree with MikeH. This hand is a minimum, it is aceless so pass is 100% clear cut.
Cyberyeti: "This is nothing like rock bottom minimum opener." Really? What is your "rock bottom" minimum. I think some of you play with bots too much or forget you have a partner on the other side of the table, or mastermind.

[mikeh]

thepossum, on 2023-February-16, 15:10, said:

Here is the hand. Not world teams level players and maybe bidding but what do you think

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It was almost flat but 5D-1 was where I could have been

Would be good to know how good players would respond to a double

Good players would end the partnership after south doubles 3S (unless they have a non bridge reason for the partnership)

Good players, by definition, play partnership bridge

Good players also don’t pass 4S as north, without a double.of 3S

[jillybean]

Hilarious