[smerriman]

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Note declarer is North, Dummy is South.

Check out the heart plays on tricks 3, 4, 5.

[thepossum]

Shouldn't this be in the Argine forum

[pescetom]

Maybe East reasons that North denied 4 hearts in the auction and must now have a stiff T?

[thorvald]

pescetom, on 2022-November-05, 02:56, said:

Maybe East reasons that North denied 4 hearts in the auction and must now have a stiff T?

I am not sure North has denied 4♥, but a simulation shows that one way to set the contract is playing partner for AQxx in ♥.

The real problem at this board is the ♥-continuation from West. - returning ♠ looks like bridge to me :-)

But a fine example of why Robots still has a long way to go, as neither East nor West will have any clue about the reason for North to play a ♥

[smerriman]

pescetom, on 2022-November-05, 02:56, said:

Maybe East reasons that North denied 4 hearts in the auction and must now have a stiff T?

North is bid by Argine too, so if that were the case, it would be reasoning against its own logic.

thorvald, on 2022-November-05, 07:10, said:

I am not sure North has denied 4♥, but a simulation shows that one way to set the contract is playing partner for AQxx in ♥.

GIB (while potentially simulating a slightly different set of hands due to the difference in North's bid meanings) comes up with the J every time at matchpoints, which is the format being played here, so I don't think you can put this down to simulations.

It is true that at IMPs, GIB will also play the King for the reason you mentioned. So if Argine is mistakenly playing IMPs.. which I guess is actually a possibility given the integration has only just been set up.

thorvald, on 2022-November-05, 07:10, said:

The real problem at this board is the ♥-continuation from West. - returning ♠ looks like bridge to me :-)

GIB also concludes that heart is the best continuation based on double dummy simulations at MPs, so the robots seem to be in agreement here.

[johnu]

Is Argine "better" than GIB? Better bidding? Looks like Argine has more bidding options than the BBO GIB, but does it actually bid better (I haven't had a chance to try). Who's the better declarer? defender? Is Argine going to replace GIB? Anybody have inside information about BBO plans?

[thorvald]

smerriman, on 2022-November-05, 13:53, said:

GIB also concludes that heart is the best continuation based on double dummy simulations at MPs, so the robots seem to be in agreement here.

When West played ♥A it stopped looking like bridge :-) Now let the bots find the best continuation doing simulations, assuming the opening lead is from shortage.

A bridgeplayer would know that the lead is at least from a 5-card suit, and know it probably is from KT9xx.

Of course a clever declarer might lead ♥ without the suit stopped, but that is not normal play.(If the bot can see 9 tricks outside ♥ for declarer the deal should be discarded in the simulations)

But yet another fine example of why reasoning in bridge is important, and why the Bots still are way behind the good bridge players

[smerriman]

Too early to answer any of those questions. Of course, Argine has been around for quite a long time on Funbridge, and I've seen people say it is "better", but that may be due to bias against GIB and / or because it hasn't been put to the heavier scrutiny of BBO.

The only thing I do know - based on Funbridge, posts on BridgeWinners, and elsewhere - is that the developer is active and improving it, which is a big plus.

[smerriman]

thorvald, on 2022-November-06, 18:07, said:

A bridgeplayer would know that the lead is at least from a 5-card suit, and know it probably is from KT9xx.

Why the king? You wouldn't lead the ten from T98xx(x) or T97xx(x)? The robot knows it's not from shortness, and that declarer has spades stopped too. It's all of those cases where the heart picks up extra tricks.

[pescetom]

smerriman, on 2022-November-06, 18:08, said:

Too early to answer any of those questions. Of course, Argine has been around for quite a long time on Funbridge, and I've seen people say it is "better", but that may be due to bias against GIB and / or because it hasn't been put to the heavier scrutiny of BBO.

The only thing I do know - based on Funbridge, posts on BridgeWinners, and elsewhere - is that the developer is active and improving it, which is a big plus.

I was one of the first to say Argine looks better: admittedly not a profound analysis, as I only used it briefly and I had little experience of Gib to compare it with. But it offered me some choice of system, had an idea of carding and didn't automatically go crazy whenever I tried to investigate slam, all of which seemed important steps forward. Also as you say, it was a live project, being maintained and improved.

[Evies Dad]

It depends on how much of Argine they are using.
Argines own robot to robot bidding and carding system is very well defined.
There are more problems with the bidding options you have.
It lets you play Acol, and understands what your bids mean so it can defend against it. But I would say it is better at 5cM and French Standard.

Argine believes the carding of its partner and it gives count religiously.
If you false card it can, and does, only put off your robot partner.

So playing the hand is somewhat different to real bridge.

I don't know how it works out which cards to play. It is very good at attacking your communication if you are declaring and it is far less passive on opening lead.