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No CC and failure to Alert BBO / ACBL Suggestion

#1 User is offline   kernsy 

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Posted 2021-October-25, 19:07

QUESTION/ SUGGESTION / SOLUTION : 
So, just before the First Hand ,  why can’t  BBO look for NO CC loaded and auto load the default > ACBL SAYC ? 

  OR …….   

QUESTION/ SUGGESTION / SOLUTION : 
So, just before the First Hand ,  why can’t  BBO look for NO CC loaded and PROMPT with a Selection of either / or …. ?  

Choose your Default for Missing CC : 
    Load.   ACBL SAYC. 
    Load.   GIB 2/1.  
    Load.   Simple Modern Acol  

Thus END of CC Missing PROBLEM !!  
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#2 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2021-October-25, 20:52

View Postkernsy, on 2021-October-25, 19:07, said:

QUESTION/ SUGGESTION / SOLUTION : 
So, just before the First Hand ,  why can’t  BBO look for NO CC loaded and auto load the default > ACBL SAYC ? 



An inaccurate CC is 1000x worse than no CC.
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#3 User is offline   RD350LC 

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Posted 2021-October-26, 07:49

This would only apply during a tournament. I would expect that you and your partner would have a convention card. If not-then why not?
Now, if the opponents do not have a convention card, I am quick to call the director about this. This gives me protection just in case I am damaged about the bidding.
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#4 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2021-October-26, 07:56

As an example, several clubs that went online I played at turned on the "if no CC, load SAYC" option. They even warned us they were doing it - and the intent was that they were going to have to play SAYC.

Well, of course that never happened - they played their partnership card anyway. Including "coded 10s and 9s" and "upside down" and "odd-even". And of course they never mentioned this. And of course calling the director to insist on them playing the card they "had posted" didn't get anywhere.

So, whenever I see an unmodified SAYC posted I just assume that it is inaccurate, and that this pair likely won't announce 1NT range or transfers either; and I'll have to ask about anything that could reasonably be Alertable, just in case it is. Because they *will* be playing an agreed system. It just won't be the one posted.

But since it *does* tell me what I need to know about their system, I guess it's doing its job, right? :-)
When I go to sea, don't fear for me, Fear For The Storm -- Birdie and the Swansong (tSCoSI)
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#5 User is offline   kernsy 

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Posted 2021-October-26, 21:56

View PostTylerE, on 2021-October-25, 20:52, said:

An inaccurate CC is 1000x worse than no CC.


Since we are told with No CC, to assume ACBL SAYC, why not default Load it to Replace No CC. It is too Time consuming in the 5 minute or 6 minute per board games to ask questions to opponents, so having No CC is an Advantage against Flight C players. Opinion.
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#6 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2021-October-27, 09:23

If you are told that, then I hope the directors are being called every time it becomes obvious they're not doing it - and that said directors are leaning on the players.

Because nobody knows how to play SAYC - even those who play SAYC (and not even "modified SAYC").

No, I don't know what to do either with players who won't alert or explain their bids - even if they do have a card posted, and I hope it's right.

But deliberately lying to the opponents, without warning the players that they're doing so, is in fact worse than "no card, if they won't explain, assume SAYC, when if it's not, call the TD".

Having no CC is actually more of an advantage against A players, who actually use the information about the opponents' system more and more effectively than flight C.
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#7 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2021-October-27, 10:32

View Postmycroft, on 2021-October-27, 09:23, said:

If you are told that, then I hope the directors are being called every time it becomes obvious they're not doing it - and that said directors are leaning on the players. Because nobody knows how to play SAYC - even those who play SAYC (and not even "modified SAYC"). No, I don't know what to do either with players who won't alert or explain their bids - even if they do have a card posted, and I hope it's right. But deliberately lying to the opponents, without warning the players that they're doing so, is in fact worse than "no card, if they won't explain, assume SAYC, when if it's not, call the TD".Having no CC is actually more of an advantage against A players, who actually use the information about the opponents' system more and more effectively than flight C.


If the rules mandate system-cards and partnerships won't use them (or if they adopt cards they know to be incorrect), should the director judge them to be guilty of misinformation? and rule accordingly? If so, what is the correct ruling? Does it depend on jurisdiction? Do law-makers/directors know? or care?

FWIW, IMO, Bridge would be more enjoyable if rules (e.g disclosure rules) were uniform, simple enough for players and directors to understand, and enforced.
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#8 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2021-October-27, 12:03

Absolutely they should.

But mechanically imposing a solution to "resolve" a problem of enforcement is useless, if that solution requires enforcement to actually work. If the game requires "CC or system statement at beginning of round" and it doesn't happen, and the directors don't care, then "if you don't provide a CC, you'll be given SAYC, and be required to play it" - well, the "be required to play it" will also not happen, because the directors don't care. I know, because it happened for 6 months with at least two of my VACB clubs.

I agree with your last. I disagree, as you well know, that that is possible. I'll add to my normal disagreement that even if directors could understand and enforce the simpler uniform ruleset correctly and consistently, that doesn't mean that they will. And what are you going to do with the lazy ones, or the ones that believe the rules are stupid and they like their own better, or the ones who know that their players believe the rules are stupid and like their own better, or the ones that believe that "following the rules" will cause half their players to leave, whereas "favouring the regulars"/ignoring the usual problems/... will only cause the new people - the ones that already antagonize the regulars with their weird and aggressive bidding, or their insistence that forget transfers aren't fair, or (all the rest) - to leave, which is much less of a cost to the bottom line? Who enforces the enforcement, and how? Again, remember, "simply, consistently, uniformly, in a way that everyone can understand"...
When I go to sea, don't fear for me, Fear For The Storm -- Birdie and the Swansong (tSCoSI)
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#9 User is offline   jgrill 

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Posted 2021-October-27, 17:04

We handle this problem at our VACB easily. We have a database where we track convention card compliance for pairs. Before the game we pull the names from the portal. One of our directors developed a slick system for this. Shout out to Gary for that! We track which pairs have no card and how many times they've played together with no card posted. Players with no card get reminded in chat. Several violations? They get a gentle email. More violations? A gentle phone call. Never punish, always offer kind help. We typically have 100% convention card compliance in our games. I've walked pairs through the process over the phone if needed. One more reason to play at a friendly VACB with a director that cares.
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#10 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2021-November-01, 16:30

View Postkernsy, on 2021-October-25, 19:07, said:

QUESTION/ SUGGESTION / SOLUTION : 
So, just before the First Hand ,  why can’t  BBO look for NO CC loaded and auto load the default > ACBL SAYC ? 

We used to do that in the ACBL speedballs and Virtual Clubs. We got many complaints because the posted CC didn't match what those pairs were actually playing, so we turned that off.

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