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A few questions about Standard American Are these forcing?

Poll: A few questions about Standard American (11 member(s) have cast votes)

Can 1C-1D-1H be passed?

  1. Yes (11 votes [100.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 100.00%

  2. No (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

Can 1S-2C-2D-2S be passed?

  1. Yes (10 votes [90.91%])

    Percentage of vote: 90.91%

  2. No (1 votes [9.09%])

    Percentage of vote: 9.09%

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#1 User is offline   mikl_plkcc 

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Posted 2021-October-20, 17:33

I have two questions about Standard American bidding about forcing or not, stated in the poll.

1. Is opener rebid at 1-level forcing or can be passed, if responder has a minimum?
2. Is responder rebid showing preference at 2-level after 2/1 response forcing or can be passed, if opener has a minimum?
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#2 User is offline   smerriman 

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Posted 2021-October-20, 18:34

Neither is forcing.

But it's pretty rare that I'd pass with the first one - I'd raise to 2 with a minimum and 4 card support, so would expect responder to have a minimum with 3 hearts and preference for a 4-3 fit over 1NT or 2.

Responder needs to jump to 3 to force with the second.
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#3 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2021-October-20, 20:16

1. Passable in theory, but very rare, basically only passing with a super-weak 4441 type hand that couldn't stomach passing 1m.
2. That this is NF is what makes it SA and not 2/1.
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#4 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2021-October-21, 01:10

Hi,

#1 I voted NF, but I dont like it.
#2 I voted F, ..., but given, that I am American, I can hardly claim, that I know Standard American.
The thing is, I can come up with a hand, that wants to bid a nonforcing 2S, you have 2NT for bal. inv. hands,
so 2S cant be bal., and similar I dont think semi bal.

And making 2S F/NF is not the difference between Standard and 2/1, my take on Standard is, that 2D can be passed,
but see my level of knowledge.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#5 User is offline   smerriman 

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Posted 2021-October-21, 01:39

View PostP_Marlowe, on 2021-October-21, 01:10, said:

#2 I voted F, ..., but given, that I am American, I can hardly claim, that I know Standard American.
The thing is, I can come up with a hand, that wants to bid a nonforcing 2S, you have 2NT for bal. inv. hands,
so 2S cant be bal., and similar I dont think semi bal.

In 2/1, to show an invitational hand with 3 card support, you bid a forcing 1NT and follow up by bidding 3.

In Standard American, 1NT denies an invitational hand, so you show that hand by bidding 2 of another suit, then supporting spades cheaply (with a jump to 3 game forcing). Inviting with 2NT would deny spade support. Opener should therefore be rejecting the invite by passing 2 with a minimum.

View PostP_Marlowe, on 2021-October-21, 01:10, said:

And making 2S F/NF is not the difference between Standard and 2/1, my take on Standard is, that 2D can be passed,
but see my level of knowledge.

2 is forcing in both - in Standard American, a 2/1 promises a second bid.
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#6 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-October-21, 20:37

You can figure out the answer by understanding SA principles. The dividing line in SA for a 2-level response is 10 points. Less must did 1N or a suit at the 1-level.

So, if opener has xx, AKxxx, KQxx, xx and responder holds Kxx, Jxx, xx, AQxxx the auction would be:

1H-2C
2D-2H
P
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#7 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2021-October-25, 09:43

For #1: it's NF, but remember, opener's jump to 2 is GF. So she can be a good 19; game could still be available with many misfitting minimums. My explanation for the bid is "not forcing, but never passed", or "not forcing, but if I pass I'd better be right'. (Note: same in 2/1, so I've done it three or four times - and been right every time).
#2 is similar. it's NF, yes, but partner has promised 10, and this isn't necessarily a preference auction. What's 1-2; 2-3? What's ...-2NT? What's ...2? What's 1-3? It could be that this is the only way to show Tx KQx Jxx AJxxx. So again, I wouldn't pass unless I knew it was right.
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