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Passed hand bidding question

#1 User is offline   Tokyo007 

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Posted 2021-September-18, 03:01

Opener with this hand (NV vs V)

96
A9532
K94
654

The bidding goes (2/1, opps silent):

P-1C
1H-2D
2H-2S
3C-3H
?

Where are we? What are the options?

(Full disclosure: this was my partner's hand. Real question was whether I conveyed info I thought I did?)

Thanks,

Mike
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#2 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2021-September-18, 03:21

I think you could have a few hands and it is not easy to distinguish between them, but 3 is clearly forcing in my world (if that is the real question).

I think opener is most likely to have honour doubleton in hearts and no spade stop, and we are searching for the best game. I do not think opener has three good hearts and a singleton spade, since that hand would have splintered with 3 instead of using fourth-suit forcing.

I would continue with 4, confirming that I have three clubs (and not just false preference in the minors), denying a half-stop in spades, and denying a sixth heart. I expect partner to now select the contract.

Note that I am trying to find the best game rather than thinking about slam.
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#3 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-September-18, 04:13

It depends on your agreements about 2. I can think of two reasonable agreements, and it matters which one you play. Either:
  • A raise of 2 to 3 is NF, and opener needs to bid 2 to set up a game force. In that cause the auction thus far is ambiguous - opener can either have 3 card support with a slam try in hearts (and, by inference, a singleton honour spade for not having splintered. So exactly 1=3=4=5) or a hand with at most 2-card support and looking for a spade stopper for 3NT (but responder has failed to bid 2NT over 2, and opener has failed to bid 3 over 3 which is the likely bid with a doubleton honour). This latter hand type is most likely exactly 2=2=4=5 with soft spades, Qx or worse (and it is probably wise to give up on 3NT after seeing 3 with that hand, but 3 suggests 4 in a potential 5-2 fit). 1=2=4=6 or so is possible, especially if the hearts are strong (4 may play better than 5, especially at matchpoints). I want to point out that in theory 3 could be an advance cue for clubs, intending to pull 3NT to 4 (but where to pull 4?) though I would personally make the 'practical bid' of 4 if I wanted to explore slam in clubs.
  • A raise of 2 to 3 is a forcing slam try, and 2 100% denies 3-card support. Then 3 on the auction shown, again discounting the advance cue interpretation, promises exactly doubleton support. As above, it shows either 2=2=4=5 with murky spades or possibly 1=2=4=6 with strong hearts (with a 7th club or 5th diamond opener should show that instead of the heart fragment).

Personally I prefer the second option.
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#4 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-September-18, 04:15

Does everybody bid 2 here ? I think I would bid 3
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#5 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2021-September-18, 05:12

View PostCyberyeti, on 2021-September-18, 04:15, said:

Does everybody bid 2 here ? I think I would bid 3


I'd probably bid 3, although I'm not sure if my hand is good enough to force to game, but that depends on what your minimum requirement is for a reverse. Some of my partners reverse on 16 counts which means I would be tempted to bid 2NT Lebensohl (although with an A and a K it looks a bit too good for that), then pass if partner cannot do anything other than bid 3 (i.e. denying a good reverse hand). It is tricky because if partner is 4-6 in the minors and their HCP are stacked in those suits, we could easily make 5, but if they are 2245 or 3145 without a spade stop and Qx and minimum for the reverse, it might just be a partscore hand.
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#6 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-September-18, 05:43

View PostAL78, on 2021-September-18, 05:12, said:

I'd probably bid 3, although I'm not sure if my hand is good enough to force to game, but that depends on what your minimum requirement is for a reverse. Some of my partners reverse on 16 counts which means I would be tempted to bid 2NT Lebensohl (although with an A and a K it looks a bit too good for that), then pass if partner cannot do anything other than bid 3 (i.e. denying a good reverse hand). It is tricky because if partner is 4-6 in the minors and their HCP are stacked in those suits, we could easily make 5, but if they are 2245 or 3145 without a spade stop and Qx and minimum for the reverse, it might just be a partscore hand.


I don't play 2N leb here although prob should was bidding 3NF
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#7 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2021-September-18, 06:07

I basically agree with what came before:

1 Not completely sold on 2 here. An immediate 3 (B/I Std); 2NT (Lebensohl) or 2 (Blackout) seems better.
2 Having gone for 2, we can feel quite good because partner apparently has a GF hand and this has allowed us to show our hand more fully. 4 now is the best description for the reasons Paul already gave.
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#8 User is offline   Tokyo007 

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Posted 2021-September-18, 06:27

Paulg - you are closest to the way I was thinking. Part of the question was whether 3H is forcing - I thought GF/at worst 4C (reverse and then another force).

Others, interesting views, thanks.

The way I saw it, I had as strong hand and pd was looking about as negative as possible. I like the 2H as it shows me the extra length. The 2S - maybe looking for a S stop, definitely not natural - "tell me something I don't know pd." I had all the strength, slam decision had to be mine. Splintering would give pd a guess at best. I thought 3H stronger than 4H.

It might have been better if I bid 4H but I still had a slam in mind (which makes if I play to drop the offside CQ … tough call!).

My hand (N) was:
A
KQ8
Q732
AKJ32

Opps had no singletons/voids. Cs broke
987 QT

Hey ho.

MPs btw.
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#9 User is offline   Tokyo007 

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Posted 2021-September-18, 06:37

View PostGilithin, on 2021-September-18, 06:07, said:

I basically agree with what came before:

1 Not completely sold on 2 here. An immediate 3 (B/I Std); 2NT (Lebensohl) or 2 (Blackout) seems better.
2 Having gone for 2, we can feel quite good because partner apparently has a GF hand and this has allowed us to show our hand more fully. 4 now is the best description for the reasons Paul already gave.


Reverse is 16+. I don't think pd had enough for game… until after 2S. I would take a direct 2N (not 2H) as a scramble, probably 6HCP, 4432 with xxxx in S.
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#10 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2021-September-18, 06:42

View PostTokyo007, on 2021-September-18, 06:27, said:

I thought 3H stronger than 4H.

I think it is fair to say that 3 may include hands that are too strong for 4, but there is no guarantee that you will able to show this feature of the hand. For example, over 4, I think 4 is still searching for the best contract after you've discovering that 3NT is not playable.

This is particularly true at matchpoints where you'd prefer to play in the major game ... when it is making :)

I've been a lot more worse slams but prefer to avoid this one at matchpoints.
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#11 User is offline   Tokyo007 

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Posted 2021-September-18, 06:52

View Postpaulg, on 2021-September-18, 06:42, said:

I think it is fair to say that 3 may include hands that are too strong for 4, but there is no guarantee that you will able to show this feature of the hand. For example, over 4, I think 4 is still searching for the best contract after you've discovering that 3NT is not playable.

This is particularly true at matchpoints where you'd prefer to play in the major game ... when it is making :)

I've been a lot more worse slams but prefer to avoid this one at matchpoints.

At MPs I think it depends on the field and how your day is going. I'd have been happy to avoid that slam. Dropping the CQ is… unlikely at best.

After 3H showing the KD might be the best option (I know there aren't 4D).

4H is the best results-based outcome.

Not convinced there is one right answer here. But 3H+2 was sub optimal. ;(
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#12 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2021-September-18, 07:12

it's a difficult hand to bid.



I do not like reverse of 2 with very poor suit. I think some players play 2NT here as not just 18-19 balanced but 18-19 unbalanced also. But if you do not have this bid available then I think sequence would be 1 - 1 - 2 - 2 - 3 - 4 or 1 - 1 - 2 - 3 - 3 (forcing), etc.
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#13 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-September-18, 07:24

I mentioned before that you need to have partnership understanding about 2 and the negative inferences. However, in no world can partner drop you in 3 after, especially not with such a great hand.
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#14 User is offline   Tokyo007 

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Posted 2021-September-18, 07:32

View PostLBengtsson, on 2021-September-18, 07:12, said:

it's a difficult hand to bid.



I do not like reverse of 2 with very poor suit. I think some players play 2NT here as not just 18-19 balanced but 18-19 unbalanced also. But if you do not have this bid available then I think sequence would be 1 - 1 - 2 - 2 - 3 - 4 or 1 - 1 - 2 - 3 - 3 (forcing), etc.


Interesting.

Your 2nd option, 3C, worries me as it faild to show the 5Hs and for responder it is not clear we have game yet.

I'm not sure how pd wold take the 3S bid - probably looking for a part stop for 3N. After it I could not be sure 3N promised a stopper or that pd would expect 3-card H support.

Anything like showing a S stopper for NT and my slam aspirations vanish!

And yes, a 2N rebid would be balanced.
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#15 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2021-September-18, 08:18

Tokyo007 'Where are we? What are the options?
(Full disclosure: this was my partner's hand.
Real question was whether I conveyed info I thought I did?)
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Over East's 2 reverse, West might prefer 3.
Lebensohl or Blackout are useful conventions over partner's reverse.
West doesn't seem strong enough for 4 over 3 so his actual 4 is fine.
Anyway, a good auction to the best contract :)

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#16 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-September-18, 08:23

The best auction would have been
1C-1H
2D-2N
3H-4H

2N is Lebensohl
3H is forcing
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
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#17 User is offline   Tokyo007 

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Posted 2021-September-18, 08:37

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-September-18, 08:23, said:

The best auction would have been
1C-1H
2D-2N
3H-4H

2N is Lebensohl
3H is forcing
No Leb available, so not an option.
Not sure I even like the possibility of Leb in that sequence - it takes bidding space and potentially takes the decision making away from a relatively unlimited hand and gives it to a passed hand.

On this hand you can almost feel your partner wishing you'd just STOP! :-)
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#18 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-September-18, 08:41

Responder is too strong for Lebensohl in my opinion, even if available.
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#19 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2021-September-18, 11:50

View PostDavidKok, on 2021-September-18, 08:41, said:

Responder is too strong for Lebensohl in my opinion, even if available.

Responder needs to show 5 hearts
2 should show 5+ hearts any strength F1 (except denies strength shape for 3
even playing Lebensohl


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#20 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-September-18, 12:10

View PostTokyo007, on 2021-September-18, 08:37, said:

No Leb available, so not an option.
Not sure I even like the possibility of Leb in that sequence - it takes bidding space and potentially takes the decision making away from a relatively unlimited hand and gives it to a passed hand.

On this hand you can almost feel your partner wishing you'd just STOP! :-)


I don't get your comment. What space are you losing - 2H and 2S? Those are not lost if appropriate. And opener makes the choice by either accepting the transfer with a minimum reverse or, as here, refusing the transfer and creating a game force. With a minor suited reverse, and good 7 count is simply not enough to force game, and that is the whole point of Lebensohl in this situation - to differentiate hand types.

If it's not available, you should bid 3C, and if partner, like here, has a strong enough hand with 3H he will bid 3H over 3C.
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