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awkard shaped opening bid

Poll: awkard shaped opening bid (19 member(s) have cast votes)

How do you bid this hand? Favorable vulnerability, agreed system is 4 card majors, 1nt is 12-14

  1. Pass (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  2. 1NT (18 votes [94.74%])

    Percentage of vote: 94.74%

  3. 1C, rebid 2C (1 votes [5.26%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.26%

  4. 1C, rebid 1NT (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  5. 1C, rebid 2D (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  6. 1D, rebid 2C (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

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#1 User is offline   kereru67 

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Posted 2021-August-10, 20:13

Dealer N, NS vul, N passes, E has

K3
K7
QJ72
K9875

Agreed system is something resembling Acol, i.e. 4 card majors, 1NT is 12-14.
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#2 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2021-August-10, 21:16

Too strong for 'Pass' and could miss game because if you 'pass' then bid later partner will not think you have 12 high points
1 rebid 2 suit too weak
1 rebid 1NT wrong. playing weak NT opener this shows 15-16
1 rebid 2 wrong. this is reverse showing 17+ sometimes stronger in some systems
1 rebid 2 wrong except if you play specific system where this is allowed as distorts suit length. shows longer than
1NT opening on 5422 balanced 12-14 yes! 5422 is two suit heavy but still considered balanced. even better for this hand if partner transfers to major suit as you have a King in both of them to help.
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#3 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2021-August-10, 21:50

Hard to believe that this would not be unanimous, even given how difficult it is to create a 100% poll online. I would open this one 1NT even if playing a forcing club system where a 1 opening and 2 rebid can explicitly be canapé.
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#4 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-August-11, 02:35

View PostGilithin, on 2021-August-10, 21:50, said:

Hard to believe that this would not be unanimous, even given how difficult it is to create a 100% poll online. I would open this one 1NT even if playing a forcing club system where a 1 opening and 2 rebid can explicitly be canapé.


My real diamond version of a precision club with a 12-15 NT, 1-1M-1N is specifically 4-5 with 2 5-4, and that's the one system I'd consider opening 1
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#5 User is offline   kereru67 

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Posted 2021-August-11, 02:45

The unfortunately influential old school guy at my club told my beginner partner he should have opened 1 and rebid 2, but my every instinct rebels against rebidding a weak 5 card suit. The one bid your partner never wants to hear is a minimum rebid of your suit. I'll only rebid a 5 card suit if absolutely forced to, for example if I'm minimum, partner bids the suit directly under mine, and I'm too weak for a NT bid.

Anyway, I haven't come across any books that recommend opening 1NT with 5-4-2-2 hands, maybe the more recent ones do, but 1NT looks clear to me too. At my club opening 1NT even with a 5-3-3-2 hand is considered a bit avant garde.

I guess the lesson is don't fall in love with a 5 card suit. 5 card suits are not special and should only be rebid if no other rebid is available. That includes the bid "pass" if your partner responds in NT; I've had partners who insist on repeating their 5 card suit even in sequences like 1 - 2NT (showing 10-12 balanced), which to me is just an abomination.
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#6 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-August-11, 02:53

Rebidding a 5-card minor is relatively common. This hand is an easy 1NT opening with your agreements, but let's say (in the same system) you have xKJxxAKxxxQxx. Presumably you open a diamond, and parter (of course) answers a spade. 2 is the normal rebid on that hand, and if we swap the minors 1-1; 2 would be normal.

As you say, voluntarily rebidding a 5-card suit while other options are available is simply a poor decision. But sometimes it is the smallest lie. Hands with exactly 4=5 in the minors are a known weak spot of many opening systems, and especially in a weak NT context it is typically best to describe your strength while lying about shape. In fact, offshape 1NT openings have become far more popular, and I suspect this will only increase in the coming years. 22(54), (31)(54) with singleton honour and even 2236 (6cm) are not out of the question these days.
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#7 User is online   paulg 

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Posted 2021-August-11, 04:54

One benefit of BBO over the decades is that it has enabled club players to play with people from different clubs, countries and cultures and not just their local environment; and Vugraph has enabled them to watch how the game is played at higher, and the highest levels. Although it is welcome for the stronger players at the club to share their experience, if they are not really strong then you can ignore their advice more easily.

No tournament player would consider opening anything except one no trump playing these methods. The hand is fairly balanced, your weaker doubleton kings are protected from the opening lead and, most importantly, nothing else is close to being reasonable when you consider what you'd have to rebid.

If you don't open one no trump, as well as the rebid problem you let the opponents into the auction more easily.
The Beer Card

I don't work for BBO and any advice is based on my BBO experience over the decades
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#8 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-August-11, 08:36

Marty Bergen - if memory serves - is one expert that argues for NT with these semi-balanced hands

Playing weak NT this hand is an easy 1NT
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#9 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2021-August-11, 09:00

I play K/S, not Acol, and one of the main differences is that 1m openings are sound. If I were to open this 1, then I'd have to rebid 2 (pretending to be something like Kx Kx QJx KT9xxx - even then we might think about 1NT). That's too much of a lie for me, when I have 1NT right there to show a 12-14 "balanced" hand (which is, frankly, what I have). Another advantage is that I have three kings, and NT is a likely contract (at whatever level), so protecting them from the opening lead right away is good.

Frankly, I rate 1 slightly ahead of 1 and well behind pass (no aces, two Kx in the important suits,... I could see a downgrade here). The world has learned that if you don't open 1NT with balanced hands in your 1NT range (whatever your 1NT range), your rebid problems, and the convolution of the rest of your bidding system to handle those exceptions, massively overwhelm the bad scores you get on some of these "bad for system" hands (remember, on some of them, partner's hand will save you!)

So, I don't like it, but I open 1NT. If I had any reason to don't like it more, I pass. No other reasonable options.
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#10 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2021-August-11, 09:00

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-August-11, 08:36, said:

Marty Bergen - if memory serves - is one expert that argues for NT with these semi-balanced hands

In today's bridge it's highly unusual to open 1N only with classic balanced shapes ((4333), (4432), (5332)).
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#11 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-August-11, 14:54

View Postnullve, on 2021-August-11, 09:00, said:

In today's bridge it's highly unusual to open 1N only with classic balanced shapes ((4333), (4432), (5332)).


I do not keep my finger on the pulse like I used to do so I appreciate the information.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#12 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-August-11, 15:07

View Postnullve, on 2021-August-11, 09:00, said:

In today's bridge it's highly unusual to open 1N only with classic balanced shapes ((4333), (4432), (5332)).

Unfortunately, bridge lessons haven't kept up with the trend. New players are still being taught that they can't open 1NT with 2 doubletons or a 5 card major.
This may be fine to get them going but I wish those teaching new players would tell them that what they are being taught is to get them started, there are few "rules"
to bidding and they will need to modify their approach as they become more competent.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

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#13 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2021-August-11, 15:27

I would open 1NT.

But this would be an exception and it would be unusual for us to open 1NT with this shape. Half of our points are in the short suits, so on this occasion I open 1NT. More generally, I would open 1C with this shape and content myself with a 2C rebid.

if partner is 5-5, we have no mechanism to finish in 3NT and would play in 4M instead.
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