[helene_t]

(1m)----x---(pass)-1♥
(pass)-1NT-(pass)-2♠

What is 2♠ most commonly played as by theory-aware tournament players, using mainstream methods (so not something with Power Doubles, Herbert Negative, transfer advances or stuff that affects the 1NT range such a raptor)?

(I suppose some hands with 5-5 or more extreme in the majors may also be possible but let's limit it to 4-4 and 4-5).

[cherdano]

Wrong forum. What I mean is that I think the majority of expert partnerships have not discussed this sequence.

[Tramticket]

We haven't discussed this specific sequence. But double then 1NT is about 18+ to 20 and I would expect that the 2S bid would be invitational values with four+ hearts and four spades.

I don't understand the minimum options. The minimum is surely zero, so why would we bid 2S with (say) four hearts and four spades and zero points.

[Cyberyeti]

 Tramticket, on 2021-July-07, 16:44, said:

I don't understand the minimum options. The minimum is surely zero, so why would we bid 2S with (say) four hearts and four spades and zero points.

Expert standard is to respond 1♠ with a 4-4 0 count I believe

[mikeh]

 Cyberyeti, on 2021-July-07, 17:04, said:

Expert standard is to respond 1♠ with a 4-4 0 count I believe

Precisely to cater to doubler having a very strong hand (the chances of which are significant if we are very weak and RHO passed over the double). Now we can bid 2H over a cuebid.

Btw, with a truly horrific hand and 4-4 majors I’d pass 1N, since there’s too much risk of partner bidding over 2H, and nothing he bids would rate to be better than 1N, in terms of going plus.

[apollo1201]

 Cyberyeti, on 2021-July-07, 17:04, said:

Expert standard is to respond 1♠ with a 4-4 0 count I believe

I thought you bid 1S only with modest values, 4-7 maybe, so that if opps compete, eg opener repeats the suit, you can show your 2nd major and let partner decide which one suits best as partner might only be 43 in the Ms. After all, with this hand, Kxxx Qxxx (xx xxx), you want to battle at the 2-level and not let them peacefully play 2m. And if you had a 5-carder, you would just repeat it.

The downside is with a very weak hand, you’re stuck repeating your H when partner has a monster.

However, here, partner is ~19-20 balanced, and we can pass. We already know partner doesn’t have 4 hearts. I wander btw over a 1NT rebid, is it like partner had opened? So 2C Stayman, transfers, etc. Although you’ve named your suit already.

[mikeh]

 apollo1201, on 2021-July-08, 00:27, said:

I thought you bid 1S only with modest values, 4-7 maybe, so that if opps compete, eg opener repeats the suit, you can show your 2nd major and let partner decide which one suits best as partner might only be 43 in the Ms. After all, with this hand, Kxxx Qxxx (xx xxx), you want to battle at the 2-level and not let them peacefully play 2m. And if you had a 5-carder, you would just repeat it.

The downside is with a very weak hand, you’re stuck repeating your H when partner has a monster.

However, here, partner is ~19-20 balanced, and we can pass. We already know partner doesn’t have 4 hearts. I wander btw over a 1NT rebid, is it like partner had opened? So 2C Stayman, transfers, etc. Although you’ve named your suit already.

You thought wrong.

It’s extremely illogical to play a method wherein you intentionally aim to avoid a 4-4 spade fit in order to play in a 4-3 heart fit. (1D) x (P) 1H (P) 2D (P) to you, holding Jxxx Qxxx xxx xx

Opposite partner with AKxx Axx Kx AKxx you play 2H or 3H rather than in spades. Why would you do that?

[jillybean]

 mikeh, on 2021-July-07, 17:47, said:

Precisely to cater to doubler having a very strong hand (the chances of which are significant if we are very weak and RHO passed over the double). Now we can bid 2H over a cuebid.

Btw, with a truly horrific hand and 4-4 majors I’d pass 1N, since there’s too much risk of partner bidding over 2H, and nothing he bids would rate to be better than 1N, in terms of going plus.

You (expert standard) obviously have the agreement that this could be on a 44xx hand. Playing without agreements, "standard", this would show 5♠, 4♥.

[jillybean]

 mikeh, on 2021-July-08, 12:18, said:

You thought wrong.
's
It’s extremely illogical to play a method wherein you intentionally aim to avoid a 4-4 spade fit in order to play in a 4-3 heart fit. (1D) x (P) 1H (P) 2D (P) to you, holding Jxxx Qxxx xxx xx

Opposite partner with AKxx Axx Kx AKxx you play 2H or 3H rather than in spades. Why would you do that?

So, (1D) X (P) 1S (P) 2D (P) 2H showing 44M , minimum hand, nothing about controls?

That's a lot to remember.

[smerriman]

 jillybean, on 2021-July-08, 17:19, said:

So, (1D) X (P) 1S (P) 2D (P) 2H showing 44M , minimum hand, nothing about controls?

That's a lot to remember.

Not really. A cue bid by doubler doesn't promise a spade fit at all; it just shows a strong hand that wants to force. So you're just making a natural bid and waiting to hear more info. Starting with 1♠ and continuing with 2♥ is much more efficient than any alternative.

[mikeh]

 jillybean, on 2021-July-08, 17:13, said:

You (expert standard) obviously have the agreement that this could be on a 44xx hand. Playing without agreements, "standard", this would show 5♠, 4♥.

I disagree


This is quite different from how we respond to an opening bid.

If partner opened 1m, the sequence

1D 1S 2D 2H would be forcing for one round, and responder is definitely showing 5+ spades and 4+ hearts

But note that with a very weak hand, responder would be passing 1D!

Bidding in response to a takeout double is NOT at all the same as bidding in response to an opening bid.

A) The double forces us to bid on very weak hands…we can only pass (assuming responder passed over the double) when we think defending at the one level is our best option, which will be extremely rare

B) we jump in response to a takeout double with modest values….a 9 count is more than enough to jump. (1D) x (P) and we hold KQxx Axx xxxx xx, we bid 2S. But we bid 1S in response to an opening bid

C) we cuebid with good 11 counts or more: there is no ‘cuebid’ even available as a response to an opening bid. If partner opened 1D, 2D by us is a raise, not a cuebid


Thus it is an error to treat bidding in advancing a takeout double as being governed by rules developed for responding to an opening bid. They are completely different animals.

[jillybean]

I understand, and agree with the above.

I am not understanding why we bid 44 zero count top down. oh! perhaps the penny has dropped.

(1D) X (P) 1H (P) 2D Partner can't bid 1S with a very strong hand and spades & we cannot show 4 card spades now.

What is 2S here?
(1D) X (P) 1H (P) 2S

[mikeh]

 jillybean, on 2021-July-09, 11:02, said:

I understand, and agree with the above.

I am not understanding why we bid 44 zero count top down. oh! perhaps the penny has dropped.

(1D) X (P) 1H (P) 2D Partner can't bid 1S with a very strong hand and spades & we cannot show 4 card spades now.

What is 2S here?
(1D) X (P) 1H (P) 2S

Very rare

X then 1S shows a hand too strong to overcall 1S: what that means will vary somewhat according to partnership style. For me, it might be AKQxxx Kx x KJxx or a little stronger

For game force hands with good, long spades, we cuebid 2D then bid spades cheaply…the cuebid makes our next non-game new suit forcing

So we don’t have a game force hand with long spades, and we don’t have a 16-18 count with long spades. I’d expect a very good hand with long spades, not quite good enough to point the forcing gun at partner’s head. He’d need a truly bad hand to pass, but pass is permissible.

[jillybean]

 mikeh, on 2021-July-09, 11:40, said:

Very rare

X then 1S shows a hand too strong to overcall 1S: what that means will vary somewhat according to partnership style. For me, it might be AKQxxx Kx x KJxx or a little stronger

For game force hands with good, long spades, we cuebid 2D then bid spades cheaply…the cuebid makes our next non-game new suit forcing

So we don’t have a game force hand with long spades, and we don’t have a 16-18 count with long spades. I’d expect a very good hand with long spades, not quite good enough to point the forcing gun at partner’s head. He’d need a truly bad hand to pass, but pass is permissible.

Thanks.

I do contend that "standard" (club standard) , without this expert interpretation, players would bid 4cM up the line and expect 1♠ followed by 2♥ to be 5:4

[mikeh]

 jillybean, on 2021-July-09, 12:14, said:

Thanks.

I do contend that "standard" (club standard) , without this expert interpretation, players would bid 4cM up the line and expect 1♠ followed by 2♥ to be 5:4

It’s not an expert interpretation. That doesn’t mean I disagree with you, since (imo) the vast majority of club players are a very long way from being expert, lol. Btw, don’t bid the way really weak players bid. So, initially you partner may be confused, but so what?

One secret to becoming a better player is to bid better. As you get known for bidding well, you’ll attract (assuming such are available) a better class of partner. It’s very hard to improve without a partner who is better than oneself or as interested in getting better as one is.

[jillybean]

 mikeh, on 2021-July-09, 12:31, said:

One secret to becoming a better player is to bid better. As you get known for bidding well, you’ll attract (assuming such are available) a better class of partner. It’s very hard to improve without a partner who is better than oneself or as interested in getting better as one is.

Yes it is, and it is hard to find someone whom, having endeavoured to learn this game and memorize the many "rules" taught, is now willing to disregard all those "rules" and learn how to bid their hand.

[apollo1201]

 mikeh, on 2021-July-08, 12:18, said:

Opposite partner with AKxx Axx Kx AKxx you play 2H or 3H rather than in spades. Why would you do that?

Thanks Mikeh and it makes sense. After all, if it is not partner who bids but the opps, we just won’t balance.
I really don’t know why I was told H with weak, S with « non weak ».
Is 2H passable after the cue bid? How do you differentiate xxxx xxxx Jxx xx from QJxx Kxxx xx xxx? You have to jump to 3H over the cue bid?

[Gilithin]

 jillybean, on 2021-July-09, 11:02, said:

What is 2S here?
(1D) X (P) 1H (P) 2S

I have never seen it described this way anywhere but every example hand for this sequence (and similar ones) that I have ever seen more or less matches the general description of an Acol 2 with a good 6 card suit.

[mikeh]

 apollo1201, on 2021-July-09, 13:11, said:

Thanks Mikeh and it makes sense. After all, if it is not partner who bids but the opps, we just won’t balance.
I really don’t know why I was told H with weak, S with « non weak ».
Is 2H passable after the cue bid? How do you differentiate xxxx xxxx Jxx xx from QJxx Kxxx xx xxx? You have to jump to 3H over the cue bid?

Yes, with a maximum 1-level response you have to take strong action over a cuebid. The cuebid says, amongst other things, that we want to be in game if you are maximum (it may also say we want to be in game even if you have a minimum, but that takes care of itself). So as advancer we have to let partner know when we have a max for the auction so far.