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how to bid these hands

#1 User is offline   cencio 

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Posted 2021-January-29, 13:04



And now better 1 nt or 2 h





And now better pass or 2sp
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#2 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2021-January-29, 13:06

I'd bid 2 on the first hand

I would pass on the second
Alderaan delenda est
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#3 User is offline   briantom 

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Posted 2021-January-29, 13:36

I would bid 2 playing XYZ on the first hand.

And pass on the second.

I also hate people posting different questions in the same thread, for what it's worth :)
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#4 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2021-January-29, 13:38

View Posthrothgar, on 2021-January-29, 13:06, said:

I'd bid 2 on the first hand

I would pass on the second


I preferable 2NT on first (slight overbid) and pass on second
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#5 User is offline   cencio 

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Posted 2021-January-29, 14:04

My question is when to show my fifth suit and when to abandon. Are there some rules?
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#6 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2021-January-29, 14:22

View Postcencio, on 2021-January-29, 14:04, said:

My question is when to show my fifth suit and when to abandon. Are there some rules?


I don't think that there is firm agreement on this

I admit that this might be an idiosyncrasy on my part, but I don't like 5332 hands.
I try to avoid rebidding them if I have a reasonable alternative.
I need a good reason to make a two level overcall holding a 5332

On the first hand, you have honor third in parter's (second) suit and the ability to ruff diamonds in the short hand. This suggests that a 4-3 spade fit could play quite well. (you hope to ruff spades in dummy. If partner is short in hearts, you can cross ruff. If partner has hearts you might be able to set up the suit)

With the second hand, partner might have a stiff spade and likely holds two. Keeping the auction low on a misfit seems like a good plan
Alderaan delenda est
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#7 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2021-January-29, 15:11

View Postcencio, on 2021-January-29, 14:04, said:

My question is when to show my fifth suit and when to abandon. Are there some rules?

For the most part, you should not rebid a 5 card suit with minimum hands unless partner forces you to bid and all your other bids are worse / mis-describe your hand by agreement. Common situations where you are forced to rebid a 5 cd suit:
- you respond 1 of a major, partner reverses (e.g. 1c-1h-2d, 1c-1s-2h) showing a strong hand and promising a 3rd bid. It's common to rebid a 5 cd suit here as it's economical and doesn't take room, partner has promised to bid again, so you don't take a risk of ending in a 5-1/5-0 fit by rebidding.
- you open 1 of a major, partner bids a 2/1 bid (e.g. 1s-2h-2s, 1h-2d-2h, 1s-2d-2s). It's again common to rebid 5 cd suit (even of terrible quality), because again partner is bidding again (with many playing it as GF these days), it's economical, and again you should be able to avoid 5-2/1/0 fits in the subsequent auction. This is done so higher bids can be better defined. If you require 6 cd suit to rebid your suit on this auction, one has to do arguably inferior things like make high reverses (1s-2h-3d) on totally min hands, or rebid 2nt on off-shape hands with unstopped shortages, which can wrong-side eventual 3nt contracts.
- you open 1c, partner responds in your stiff, and you have an agreement that rebidding 1nt promises at least a doubleton in partner's suit, and your hand isn't strong enough to reverse.

In practically all other situations with minimums, there are better alternatives, usually involving either bidding NT, a second suit, raising partner on 3 cds (even though they might only have 4), or taking a preference to partner's first suit.

If you are strong enough, GF values, or invational values over a 1nt rebid, you can force partner to show 3 cd support by employing gadgets like 4th suit forcing, new minor forcing, xyz, xynt, checkback stayman, etc. depending on the auction. But still you aren't rebidding the suit directly in these situations.

The only real exception to this rule is when the auction has gone 1m-1M-1nt, and partner promises a doubleton (some people agree 1nt is allowable on singleton, which has pros and cons). In this situation, with shapely hands and min (not strong enough to employ xynt/nmf/whatever gadget you have agreed with inv+), it's often advantageous to rebid 2M on 5 cds. Because partner will have 3 cd support quite often, and these play better in the major, and even on the 5-2 fits the major sometimes does better.

So 1nt on first.
The second hand I'd pass since 5332, but I would rebid spades with more shape.

In other situations, where partner doesn't have to have any cards in your suit, you shouldn't rebid 5 cd suits because partner should be often passing with singletons/voids, because you are doing the same thing with good 6/7 cd suits and bidding more is just making things worse. Playing 5-1 fits on a regular basis doesn't tend to work out well.
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#8 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-January-29, 15:15

View Postcencio, on 2021-January-29, 14:04, said:

My question is when to show my fifth suit and when to abandon. Are there some rules?


There are no rules - only judgment.

The first hand is more difficult because your hand is better and there is some kind of spade fit - so now the question becomes: what is partner likely to hold? If your partner opens a lot of 10 and 11-counts I would tend to bid your hand conservatively; however, it he is more sound, then a tad more aggressive would be my approach. But how?

I have a lot of sympathy for Richard's 2S bid - it keeps the auction alive when a pass was available so it shows something more than minimum values - but 3-card support isn't ideal. At the same time, bidding 1NT could miss a game. But due to the soft values in the 4th suit - clubs - and a lack of fit for diamonds, I would tend to downgrade this auction and bid 1NT. If my partner can move again over 1NT, then I would be more aggressive. If he can't, we probably haven't missed anything. This could be right or wrong.

The second hand is easier. I pass, especially if partner is apt to raise on 3-card support sometimes.
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#9 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2021-January-30, 03:49

View Postcencio, on 2021-January-29, 14:04, said:

My question is when to show my fifth suit and when to abandon. Are there some rules?


No « rules » but general considerations, and some judgment on borderline decisions


In the 1st hand, even not playing 4SF as a GF, the hand is a bit weak (10 HCPs and a single in partner’s 1st suit that is a downside) to consider this call which leads you too high too often. Although red at IMPs since I can stop in 2S (a contract that shouldn’t play too badly) or 2NT, there could be merits to try to find a magical 4H. Partner’s hand is still not defined. They could have as much as 18 and not want to rebid 2NT, or a shapely 15-17 not suitable for 1NT opening. So you have to keep in mind that what you will bid is not necessarily the final contract.

Anyway in such auctions when partner showed 2 suits and your hand is weak, rebidding your suit usually shows 6-cds or a very good 5-cd as you often have a singleton opposite. Alternatives when you don’t have that is to bid NT or put/drop partner in a decent contract in one of their suits, maybe a 7-cd fit but a playable spot.

Auction 2 is different. Partner’s hand is well defined (12-14 bal) and when weak with no game prospects, you usually rebid your suit with 5, as there should be 2 at least opposite. Transfer a Q to your partner, they open a strong NT and you transfer to your M without thinking twice. That is really similar.

Here, however, I would pass. The S sit is lousy and you are « max » in your weakness. NT should play well and for sure better than a 5-2 (or 5-1 if partner had a 1435 hand and sometimes rebids NT with such shape to ease the discovery of a 4-4 H fit) S contract. The only slight worry is the weak doubleton H. But partner will often have 4 cds in the suit and opps won’t have a free run.
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#10 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2021-January-30, 10:33

I have a strong opinion that rebidding 5 card suits is wrong. Or at least, something that you do only when all other calls are worse, knowing that partner will assume 6.

In order to have that opinion, I have to have a compliant partner - one that will show me 3-card support, having denied 4-card, "just in case". And a compliant system - support doubles being the first line, but there are more.

Having said that, your hands are interesting, and I initially looked at it and said "I can't answer this without a whole bunch of information about system and tendencies" (which basically means "you're on your own with a pickup, and one of those pickups will believe you were wrong no matter what you do, eventually").

First hand - do you bypass a 4-card spade suit in this auction to rebid 1NT? Do you have system to handle that? If you do, then partner is almost certain to have shortness somewhere (or 4=2=5=2 with a strong reason to not bid NT - pure values maybe) and it's likely in hearts. That's the kind of hand that might play best in spades, even knowing it's a 4-3. I'd be strongly tempted to bid 2 (or pass with a weaker hand).

If you don't bypass 4 spades, what's your opening NT range? If it's 15-17, then you have the 12-14 4x4x's to deal with as well as everything else. Now I'm not as happy with my no-Ace 10 as I would be if partner can't have a minimum balanced hand (because they would have opened it 1NT).

How often will partner raise on 4=3=5=1 or 4=3=4=xx? Do you have a way of finding that out? If partner does and you do, then you really don't want to bid 2 because it's more likely to be a 5=2.

Second hand - This is one of my exceptions, but it also depends strongly on your system and tendencies. No matter my NT range, I transfer with a 5-card major; so I rebid 2 here (assuming strong NT). With a slightly stronger hand or playing weak NT (so partner's rebid is 15-17), I use XYNT to show an invite with 5 spades (much easier to deal with because it's baked into the convention). BUT:
  • If you're the kind of pair that doesn't "guarantee" 2 spades for the 1NT rebid, then you can't do this;
  • I frequently play a weak NT in a strong NT world, so in this auction, *everybody* is transferring to spades, so I should show the 5 spades too. So my biases are showing as well;
  • Again, if partner will raise on 3 and a ruffing value, then it's more likely it's a 5-2, and that influences pass;
  • This hand is actually quite good for passing (apart from the heart weakness, hopefully partner has 4 to something useful); you have one guaranteed, one likely and one possible entry to those spades to set them up and run them;
  • If the hearts *are* a weakness, then playing the 5=2 (and bad breaks on the 5=3) doesn't get you as much over 1NT as other times, because they have the tap ready to go and it's the natural lead. So you could easily lose as many hearts in 2 as in 1NT, or one fewer to break even.

Like many things in bridge, simple question, not simple answer. And not the same answer for everyone.
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#11 User is offline   morecharac 

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Posted 2021-January-30, 12:56

View Postcencio, on 2021-January-29, 13:04, said:



And now better 1 nt or 2 h

We play repeated suits promise one extra card[1] so 2 every time.

  • Partner hasn't limited her hand sufficiently to preclude 3NT making and this hand should make 4 with three-card support and any non-freakish distribution.
  • I'll pass 2NT
  • I'll bid 3 over 2[2], retreating to 3 if partner bids 3. Partner will understand it's three-card support and has the option to go 3NT with a running suit.
  • Some days I'll pass 2 because BBO has been treating our system as a chew toy.


View Postcencio, on 2021-January-29, 13:04, said:



And now better pass or 2sp

Pass
  • Partner's shown a minimum.
  • A fit only rates to make 3.
  • 1NT might make three with a fit, which scores better.

[1] Unless it's repeating an opening minor the first time, in which case it promises five.
[2] We show stoppers, not ask for them.
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