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Coronavirus Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it

#1401 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2021-June-05, 19:56

View Postpilowsky, on 2021-June-05, 18:46, said:

Oh look Richard -
China is the engine room of the US economy.
When the US blames China for all its problems it conveniently forgets that it pays China to create the problems that it complains about.
A private US security firm also supplies Chinese state media with its server capacity so that it can safely pump false narratives into the atmosphere without fear of cyber attack.
Good job.


Once again *****wit, the issue here is NOT whether not the US is outsourcing pollution to China.

Rather, this is another yet another example where

1. You start by making a claim that is factually incorrect
2. You are mentally and emotionally incapable of engaging with this reality
3. You desperately try to change the subject to something else

I don't think so
Hommie don't play dat
Alderaan delenda est
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#1402 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2021-June-05, 21:12

You're very trying Richard.
Not making any sense but clearly trying.


Also, try to be more imaginative when insulting people.
Your current level of ranting is becoming boring.
non est deus ex machina; även maskiner behöver lite kärlek, J'ai toujours misé sur l'étrange gentillesse des robots.
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#1403 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2021-June-06, 09:03

View Postpilowsky, on 2021-June-05, 21:12, said:


Also, try to be more imaginative when insulting people.
Your current level of ranting is becoming boring.


Ok

I think that you are nearing the end of your life.
Your mental faculties are declining.
You're unloved and you're desperate for attention.

You're reducing to trolling news groups because any form of attention (no matter how ugly and disrespectful) is better than sitting alone, being ignored, and confronting your own mortality.

Always remember, both the newsgroup and the world will be better when you are gone. This is not to say that your presence will be missed or your absence will be consciously noticed.

However, any place that you are not is better for your absence.
Alderaan delenda est
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#1404 User is online   cherdano 

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Posted 2021-June-06, 11:57

Well, that escalated quickly.
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
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#1405 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2021-June-06, 15:29

View Postpilowsky, on 2021-June-04, 16:02, said:

Some parts of China - which is a huge country by landmass - have 'high pollution' - most of it does not.

This is, I believe, the claim that started the side issue. Hrothgar provided some specific data to suggest that the actual level of pollution in China does not match the statement. How about providing some evidence of your own to back up your position? This is usually how adult debate works.
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#1406 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2021-June-06, 15:29

Yes, but he isn't improving.
Anytime he speaks I get the sense that I'm having a conversation with a fungus.
There's no humour in his bile.
Still, I suppose he's good at something - arithmetic perhaps?
I give the last rant a C-.
non est deus ex machina; även maskiner behöver lite kärlek, J'ai toujours misé sur l'étrange gentillesse des robots.
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#1407 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2021-June-06, 15:53

View Postcherdano, on 2021-June-04, 11:36, said:

China had early incidence of the pandemic, has high pollution, and I would say a "lack of a traditional culture of distancing". So basically he is only 100% wrong.

Correlation doesn't mean that there can't be outliers.

#1408 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2021-June-06, 16:18

View Postpilowsky, on 2021-June-06, 15:29, said:


Anytime he speaks I get the sense that I'm having a conversation with a fungus.



Sorry about that.

I'm actually considered a very good writer.
I certainly get paid lots and lots of money for it.

I'll make an effort to dumb things down even more and avoid words with more than two syllable when writing for you.
I can't promise that you'll be able to follow along, but perhaps it will help.
Alderaan delenda est
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#1409 User is online   cherdano 

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Posted 2021-June-06, 16:30

View Postbarmar, on 2021-June-06, 15:53, said:

Correlation doesn't mean that there can't be outliers.

Come on. "Correlation"? Between covid deaths and a "lack of a traditional culture of distancing"?? Which would be measured--how?

This was obviously just a typical successful guy getting asked about something he has no clue about, and instead of being able to answer "I don't know, I haven't looked at data about this since last summer" he bloviates some non-sense. I don't blame him, if I had been this successful, I would probably also enjoy opinionating on everything I've ever formed an opinion on - I just can't believe anyone is listening.
I can't believe there are already three people in this thread taking this comment seriously.
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#1410 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2021-June-06, 17:10

Perhaps the problem lies in the use of the word "correlation".
On a Bridge forum - full of people with a maths background - it has a very specific meaning.


In the social sciences, the meaning could be somewhat looser.


Who knows what he actually said or meant or what was lost in translation. Or even what the question was.
My sister used to get asked questions by the London press of the form - "Is there any relationship between hair colour and eating disorders in women?"
What she called the "Lady Di question."


People "see" relationships between things where none exists all the time.
On this forum problems related to "Theory of Mind" are a major source of excitement.


In a recent study published in Nature, electrodes were used to record neuronal responses to people being asked questions along the lines of "if you hide something that Tom put on the counter, where does Tom think it is?"
Unsurprisingly some neurons were activated and some were not.
non est deus ex machina; även maskiner behöver lite kärlek, J'ai toujours misé sur l'étrange gentillesse des robots.
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#1411 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2021-June-06, 19:36

View Postcherdano, on 2021-June-01, 10:38, said:

Well, if I knew this question could get settled, I'd certainly be happy to make a bet with Tyler Cowen that SARS-Cov-2 is a normal zoonotic virus.


Returning to more mundane matters.
It now seems that haematophages (not Hrothgar in this case) are potential vectors for SARS-CoV-2.
You can read the full paper here.
Or look at the diagram here.

The authors are careful to point out that this is still theoretical, but it does point to the known difficulty in pinpointing the elements in the chain of transmission.

Biology is pretty cunning. It seems unlikely that it would need any help from a laboratory.
Laboratory leakage is always possible but given what we know about SARS biology: less likely. How "less likely" is the problem.

Quote

Abstract
Coronavirus-like organisms have been previously identified in Arthropod ectoparasites (such as ticks and unfed cat flea). Yet, the question regarding the possible role of these arthropods as SARS-CoV-2 passive/biological transmission vectors is still poorly explored. In this study, we performed in silico structural and binding energy calculations to assess the risks associated with possible ectoparasite transmission. We found sufficient similarity between ectoparasite ACE and human ACE2 protein sequences to build good quality 3D-models of the SARS-CoV-2 Spike:ACE complex to assess the impacts of ectoparasite mutations on complex stability. For several species (e.g., water flea, deer tick, body louse), our analyses showed no significant destabilisation of the SARS-CoV-2 Spike:ACE complex, suggesting these species would bind the viral Spike protein. Our structural analyses also provide structural rationale for interactions between the viral Spike and the ectoparasite ACE proteins. Although we do not have experimental evidence of infection in these ectoparasites, the predicted stability of the complex suggests this is possible, raising concerns of a possible role in passive transmission of the virus to their human hosts. (my emphasis)

non est deus ex machina; även maskiner behöver lite kärlek, J'ai toujours misé sur l'étrange gentillesse des robots.
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#1412 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2021-June-07, 03:28

Looks as if I've missed some serious action. Sadly life and business demands get in the way of entertainment sometimes.

It has to be said that anyone who thinks that science isn't used/abused politically is totally naive

It's a long time since I've been to China (30+ years), similar track to Richard it seems,but I also remember beautiful clear skies, terrible pollution and I only saw a tiny bit of a hugely diverse and remarkably variably ruled place for a totalitarian Beijing centric communist regime

I have to agree with the sentiments of Pilowsky regarding all the people here going on about how clean and green they are by exporting their footprint to China and elsewhere

PS I don't care who Tucker Carlson is but....

PPS it's been amusing/sad/scary seeing backflips from various media after Dr Fauci's revelations. Let's say I'm reading 1984 again soon. My concerns about media (and sadly other supposedly apolitical parties) over recent years, and political flip flops will not easily be removed, if ever

PPPS as for correlation you would hope for better understanding of statistical concepts in Bridge circles, but maybe not
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#1413 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2021-June-07, 19:12

View Postpilowsky, on 2021-June-06, 17:10, said:

Perhaps the problem lies in the use of the word "correlation".
On a Bridge forum - full of people with a maths background - it has a very specific meaning.

In the social sciences, the meaning could be somewhat looser.

cherdano's main point seems to be that it does not have any meaning whatsoever unless you actually define what a "lack of a traditional culture of distancing" actually means. And the statement is therefore nonsense regardless of whether you are talking mathematically, scientifically, social scientifically, or even for social discourse. Perhaps you as a biologist would like to share your mathematical insights on his question regarding how to measure a "lack of a traditional culture of distancing".

Oh yes, and we are still waiting for your evidence for pollution levels in China. Making a statement and moving on when challenged without backing it up is pretty much par for the course these days in debates; but bridge players are supposed to be educated so let's try to hold ourselves to some sort of standard.
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#1414 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2021-June-07, 20:06

View PostGilithin, on 2021-June-07, 19:12, said:

cherdano's main point seems to be that it does not have any meaning whatsoever unless you actually define what a "lack of a traditional culture of distancing" actually means. And the statement is therefore nonsense regardless of whether you are talking mathematically, scientifically, social scientifically, or even for social discourse. Perhaps you as a biologist would like to share your mathematical insights on his question regarding how to measure a "lack of a traditional culture of distancing".

Oh yes, and we are still waiting for your evidence for pollution levels in China. Making a statement and moving on when challenged without backing it up is pretty much par for the course these days in debates; but bridge players are supposed to be educated so let's try to hold ourselves to some sort of standard.


Here is the data from Statista on countries with high levels of pollution. China is nowhere near the top but this is not the point.
Why you would be interested in my mathematical insights into "a traditional culture of distancing" makes no sense at all.
Cherdano stated that he was 100% wrong - I don't agree with the concept that something/someone can be 100% anything. It lacks subtlety.

Perhaps you are looking for some kind of mathematical equivalent of Godel's proof of the existence of God.

You and others are missing the main point about pollution in China.
The USA and most other developed countries export their pollution (and human rights abuses) to poorer countries by paying abysmally low prices for the things they produce and then turn around and complain they have a poor human rights record (hilarious considering the human rights record of many developed nations). Survivors of the Holocaust, the genocides in North and South America, the Atlantic slave trade and the genocide of Australia's first people live and breathe amongst us.


The complaints about human rights abuses and pollution by the same people that benefit from the clothes on their backs and the laptops that they use to rant on this forum is a little hypocritical.

Here is a report from CNN today documenting this: https://edition.cnn....nt-lead-vpx.cnn

The question is not who makes the most pollution? The question is cui bono?

This morning I heard that VP Harris has told Guatemalan refugees not to come to the USA.
The USA buys more than $4 billion worth of goods from the people in Guatemala but the people in Guatemala that produce it get paid a pittance for it, they have no decent health care and life there is very unpleasant.
Still, so long as Harris gets her coffee in the morning that's melis by you?

Clearly, your education is different to mine.
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#1415 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2021-June-11, 23:00

View Postpilowsky, on 2021-June-07, 20:06, said:

You and others are missing the main point about pollution in China.
The USA and most other developed countries export their pollution (and human rights abuses) to poorer countries by paying abysmally low prices for the things they produce and then turn around and complain they have a poor human rights record (hilarious considering the human rights record of many developed nations).

That's one way to look at it. Another way is that countries like China operate sweatshops and pay their workers low wages so they can undercut the costs in more progressive countries.

We don't force them to offer such low prices, but we're not going to pass up the bargains.

But you're right about the hypocracy. We get used to these low prices, but then complain about their poor working conditions.

#1416 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-June-12, 15:02

View Postbarmar, on 2021-June-11, 23:00, said:

That's one way to look at it. Another way is that countries like China operate sweatshops and pay their workers low wages so they can undercut the costs in more progressive countries.

We don't force them to offer such low prices, but we're not going to pass up the bargains.

But you're right about the hypocracy. We get used to these low prices, but then complain about their poor working conditions.


Seems there is a third way to look at this situation: by offering low-skill, low-wage production to impoverished nations we help increase their employment while benefitting from the reduced prices. High-skill, high-pay production jobs are not outsourced. This is the big lie of the populist - that outsourcing is the scourge of our labor markets.

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
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#1417 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2021-June-12, 15:30

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-June-12, 15:02, said:


Seems there is a third way to look at this situation: by offering low-skill, low-wage production to impoverished nations we help increase their employment while benefitting from the reduced prices. High-skill, high-pay production jobs are not outsourced. This is the big lie of the populist - that outsourcing is the scourge of our labor markets.



The question is what is a low-skill job??? Textile/clothing jobs? From what I have seen, sewing is a highly skilled job, yet is a very low-wage job in 3rd world countries. Working in electronics or chip making? Again, high skilled in my opinion, but low wage in 3rd world countries compared to the industrial countries.

What I see is high-skill, low-wage jobs being performed in 3rd world countries, and killing competing industries in the industrial countries. The result is that countries like the US end up with low-skill service jobs which are usually the lowest paying types of jobs. I'm not a big protectionist, but I understand the argument for targeted tariffs to even the playing field. I'm willing to pay a slightly higher amount if it means that workers can make a living wage.
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#1418 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-June-12, 19:44

View Postjohnu, on 2021-June-12, 15:30, said:

The question is what is a low-skill job??? Textile/clothing jobs? From what I have seen, sewing is a highly skilled job, yet is a very low-wage job in 3rd world countries. Working in electronics or chip making? Again, high skilled in my opinion, but low wage in 3rd world countries compared to the industrial countries.

What I see is high-skill, low-wage jobs being performed in 3rd world countries, and killing competing industries in the industrial countries. The result is that countries like the US end up with low-skill service jobs which are usually the lowest paying types of jobs. I'm not a big protectionist, but I understand the argument for targeted tariffs to even the playing field. I'm willing to pay a slightly higher amount if it means that workers can make a living wage.

Me too. My point is that these are not simple binary questions that simplistic solutions can answer.
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#1419 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2021-June-12, 20:21

To make matters worse, we can hypothesise that the outsourcing of polluting manufacturing from Western countries to developing nations such as China, India, Indonesia, South and Central America etc. not only causes an increase in atmospheric pollution but also leads to deforestation.
The consequence of which is that animals like civets pivot from the forest to the city.
The pivoting civets bring with them a reservoir of viruses that can then be transmitted from animal to human.
Now, Louis Gohmert (R-Texas) is suggesting that BLM and the US forestry service ought to change the moon's orbit in order to reduce climate change.

Edit: Gohmert discussing the moon:
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#1420 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2021-June-12, 22:36

View Postpilowsky, on 2021-June-12, 20:21, said:

Now, Louis Gohmert (R-Texas) is suggesting that BLM and the US forestry service ought to change the moon's orbit in order to reduce climate change.


Hey now! Louie Gohmert is one of the most stable genius Republicans in Congress if you look at the competence and intelligence curve. Unfortunately, instead of flattening the Covid curve, Republicans pancaked, flattened, stomped on their own competence and intelligence curve so that any Republican with a pulse is at the top of the curve.

I am still hoping Republicans get their act together so they can put together a united front to let the red counties secede from the USA, again.
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