[Cyberyeti]

---

2♦+1 EW+110

EW were unhappy about being talked out of 3N, S was unhappy since 4♠ was on.

[pescetom]

Agreements? What would 2S by S have been, or 2NT (or 3C) by W after E's 2D?

[Cyberyeti]

pescetom, on 2020-January-08, 08:07, said:

Agreements? What would 2S by S have been, or 2NT (or 3C) by W after E's 2D?

An initial 2♠ by S would have been strong.

I'm guessing about EW's agreements, but I suspect 3♣ would be a hand too strong for a 2♣ overcall (whatever their limit is) and 2N some sort of strong balanced, but not exactly known point count. My suspicion is that 19 would be in range, but he didn't like the nature of his major suit stops.

[pescetom]

Cyberyeti, on 2020-January-08, 08:30, said:

An initial 2♠ by S would have been strong.

I'm guessing about EW's agreements, but I suspect 3♣ would be a hand too strong for a 2♣ overcall (whatever their limit is) and 2N some sort of strong balanced, but not exactly known point count. My suspicion is that 19 would be in range, but he didn't like the nature of his major suit stops.

Thanks. In that case I think W only has himself to blame.
S can't really complain about missing a 14 point game and picking up what is quite possibly a decent score anyway.

[FelicityR]

Double by West seems wrong, it's the wrong shape forget about its over a 16+ count. I'd rather bid a top heavy 1NT here - if that is available as a balanced 16-18 as opposed a conventional bid - if you're not going to bid 2NT after partner's 2♦ bid. It's more likely partner is going to bid 2♦ than 2♣ in response to your X. It's a matter of planning ahead.

After 1NT by West here, 3NT can be reached by East/West.

As for North/South missing game, well that's fairytale bridge.

[Cyberyeti]

FelicityR, on 2020-January-08, 09:06, said:

As for North/South missing game, well that's fairytale bridge.

I think N should consider raising to 2♠ preemptively at which point W would be brave to go to NT, he needs a running diamond suit to make any sensible number of tricks in NT, and S just might buy the deal in 3♠.

[Tramticket]

I don't understand west's double. If west is going to bid here (and since it's a forcing auction there is no rush), 2♣ or 1NT would be the obvious choices. Did west think he was too strong for a 2♣ or 1NT overcall? I would have though he had the right values for either call in the sandwich seat.

If I were East, I would expect that the double would promise at least 4-4 in the minors and a strong take-out double. I would jump to 3♦ opposite a strong take-out double.

[StevenG]

I don't understand North's initial pass. Presumably he would have rebid 2♦ without the double.

[Cyberyeti]

StevenG, on 2020-January-08, 09:37, said:

I don't understand North's initial pass. Presumably he would have rebid 2♦ without the double.

2♦ or 2♠ without the X, either are fine in system

[Cyberyeti]

Tramticket, on 2020-January-08, 09:27, said:

I don't understand west's double. If west is going to bid here (and since it's a forcing auction there is no rush), 2♣ or 1NT would be the obvious choices. Did west think he was too strong for a 2♣ or 1NT overcall? I would have though he had the right values for either call in the sandwich seat.

If I were East, I would expect that the double would promise at least 4-4 in the minors and a strong take-out double. I would jump to 3♦ opposite a strong take-out double.

I'm guessing here, but I suspect W thought he was too strong for 2♣ or 1N, and E thought he might be opposite a (23)44 14 or so, W visualised Jx(x), xxx, QJxxx, Qx(x) which is far from the worst hand partner could have where if S has A♠ and N ♥AQ you're already high enough and possibly too high.

[TylerE]

W's double is fine. W's pass of 2♦ is not.

[Cyberyeti]

TylerE, on 2020-January-08, 10:41, said:

W's double is fine. W's pass of 2♦ is not.

What do you want him to do ?

[Tramticket]

Cyberyeti, on 2020-January-08, 10:08, said:

I'm guessing here, but I suspect W thought he was too strong for 2♣ or 1N, and E thought he might be opposite a (23)44 14 or so

I would want extras in the sandwich position - so West is not too strong for either action in my view. If he believes he is too strong, then he should make a second bid as TylerE suggests, but he passed suggesting that he knew that he was not strong enough to double then bid.

I would pass with a (23)44 14-count. Why come in with a weak NT type at this stage? East also underestimated the values needed to compete in this position.

[DozyDom]

I think E has been restrained and sensible - with both opps bidding, 3D is a firm overbid. No blame there.

I think S has been restrained but maybe less sensible. S has zero interest in defending 2D, since partner clearly doesn't have 4 good diamonds after passing; a 2S bid doesn't promise extra values, and will pretty much never be raised. Even vulnerable, it just feels like the clear bid. Still, partner won't get you to 4 normally - you'll end up in a spade partscore with a plus, though.

W... is being a muppet. He doesn't have the shape for a takeout double, and he has stoppers in the opponents' suits. If he thinks he isn't strong enough to X and rebid NT, he should overcall 1NT direct. If he thinks he's too strong for 1NT, he should double and rebid NT. Either one will get to 3NT.

N... is comatose. Genuinely incomprehensible. If you somehow don't raise directly - as should be automatic, both with or without the double - balance. I just can't fathom it. Will that get you to 4S? If the opponents bid 3NT, you can be sure that it will.

[Cyberyeti]

DozyDom, on 2020-January-08, 11:47, said:

I think E has been restrained and sensible - with both opps bidding, 3D is a firm overbid. No blame there.

I think S has been restrained but maybe less sensible. S has zero interest in defending 2D, since partner clearly doesn't have 4 good diamonds after passing; a 2S bid doesn't promise extra values, and will pretty much never be raised. Even vulnerable, it just feels like the clear bid. Still, partner won't get you to 4 normally - you'll end up in a spade partscore with a plus, though.

W... is being a muppet. He doesn't have the shape for a takeout double, and he has stoppers in the opponents' suits. If he thinks he isn't strong enough to X and rebid NT, he should overcall 1NT direct. If he thinks he's too strong for 1NT, he should double and rebid NT. Either one will get to 3NT.

N... is comatose. Genuinely incomprehensible. If you somehow don't raise directly - as should be automatic, both with or without the double - balance. I just can't fathom it. Will that get you to 4S? If the opponents bid 3NT, you can be sure that it will.

Well S doesn't expect 3 spades and a singleton, having replied on a 3 count and knowing we open plenty 10 counts, he envisages he may already have kept them out of 3N. Plus embarrassing to explain to partner who had x, AQJxx, KJ10x, xxx why you bid 2♠ and went for a random 500 when they hadn't bid their making 3N.

[Tramticket]

DozyDom, on 2020-January-08, 11:47, said:

I think E has been restrained and sensible - with both opps bidding, 3D is a firm overbid. No blame there.

My contention is west is not doubling to show some random 12-count with 4-4 in the minors - west can pass with this type of hand, rather than wading into a forcing auction. So east should expect west to hold extras, either in terms of strength or (more likely) shape. In this context - I think East's hand looks pretty good - far better than West will expect - and now would be a good time to tell partner the good news.

[Tramticket]

I assume that you don't play support redoubles?

On that assumption, I think that North might have raised to 2S - but pass also looks fine. North might have protected (particularly if he hasn't shown the 5th heart) but with 4 cards in opp's suit I would expect the defence to have good chanced on a forcing defence (2D only makes because West has a monster).

[Cyberyeti]

Tramticket, on 2020-January-08, 13:51, said:

I assume that you don't play support redoubles?

On that assumption, I think that North might have raised to 2S - but pass also looks fine. North might have protected (particularly if he hasn't shown the 5th heart) but with 4 cards in opp's suit I would expect the defence to have good chanced on a forcing defence (2D only makes because West has a monster).

No support xx, our 1♥ is 5 card unless 15+, although I disgagree with your assessment, Ax, xxx, Kxxx, AKxx is enough to make 2♦.and you probably don't need ♦K

[nudnikbp]

West has enough to bid again instead of passing 2 diamonds. 2NT, given the way the auction proceeded.

[Cyberyeti]

nudnikbp, on 2020-January-09, 06:11, said:

West has enough to bid again instead of passing 2 diamonds. 2NT, given the way the auction proceeded.

2N or 3♦ are going to be a barrel of laughs opposite the ♦Jxxxx and out/the odd quack my partner often has here.