[RuflRabbit]

Playing a strong notrump against opps with good tools for competing and the willingness to use them, is anyone finding that they get to *use* the crawling/scrambling Stayman sequence with any appreciable frequency? I can't even remember the last time I played in 2H on this sequence so am thinking of giving it up to make 2C-2D-2H the 4=5 invite.

That would have two advantages over using 2D-2H-2S for the 4=5 invite: a) it'd free 2D-2H-2S for other things, and b) it'd make it easier to allow aggressive invites on 4=5 hands, with 2H still a possible contract and 3H available as a counter-invite.

[pescetom]

I don't remember it getting much use when I played it, and since I gave it up I have not had a hand where I really needed it. So if you are convinced you have a better use I would say go ahead.

[wank]

it's a terrible idea at matchpoints for sure. at mps you want to be using stayman on all your 44 major hands (you're solidly odds on to have a fit) and scrambling into your 4-3 fit if necessary.

at imps you can just smolen on the 54 invites and play game. unless you're 22 in the minors, invites are essentially useless anyway, because opener will never knows how useful or otherwise his honours in the minors are.

on the whole then i'd say worrying about bidding 45 hands optimally isn't worth it.

most people don't use rubbish stayman often enough. unless you're playing imps and you have 5-7ish points you should bid stayman with 44. 3415 is good at any form of scoring. over 2D, you bid 2H. if p bids 2s, you bid 3C. p knows that's weak because you already bid 2H to play.

[steve2005]

Seen this in Revision Precision
1N-2♣-2♦-2♥=5♠4♥+ INV+
1N-2♣-2♦-2♠=5♥4♠+ INV+
more space to look for slam or fit for invite as 2M is F1
since 2M is F1 it costs nothing to reverse the bids to right-side

jumping to 3♥/3♠ = 4441 over 2♦

[RuflRabbit]

 wank, on 2019-October-25, 11:47, said:

it's a terrible idea at matchpoints for sure.

I'm not sure it's clear that it's quite *that* bad at MP - it's all going to depend on the frequencies, beginning with how often we actually *get* to scramble into something in an uncontested auction - but I agree that the downside risks are greater at MP. I should have perhaps made it clear in the OP that this is part of a system that's really designed for IMPs.

[awm]

Sam and I have been using the following method:

1NT - 2♣ - 2♦:

2♥ = forces 2♠, one of the following:
1. Weak hand with five spades and four-plus hearts (passes 2♠)
2. INV hand with five hearts and four spades (bids 2NT next)
3. Various GF hands with both majors (bid the longer minor with 5431 types, 3M with 6-4 types, 5422 bids 3M after 2♦)

2♠ = INV hand with five spades (may/may not have four hearts as well)

We use 1NT-2♦-2♥-2♠ as "artificial invite with five-plus hearts and NOT four spades"; this frees 2NT rebids after transfers for other uses.

My experiences using stayman on weak 4-4 major hands (without 4+♦) have been pretty poor. My calculations are that a 4-4 major fit actually materializes slightly less than half the time (part of this is influenced by how often we open 1NT with 6-minor or 5-4 minors, both of which are pretty often... part of it is conditional probabilities given that responder has major suit length). The 4-3 major fit almost always seems to lose at MP when compared to just playing 1NT (keep in mind that the three-card holding is in a balanced hand and the four-card holding is often a weak suit because the overall strength tends to be skewed towards opener, although this last point may not hold for weak notrumpers which explains a bit of why their experience seems to be so different). Anyway this becomes pretty much a top-or-bottom swing compared to the field (most of whom are in 1NT) with slightly less than 50% odds at a top. Of course, 5-4 major hands are a totally different story.

[pescetom]

 wank, on 2019-October-25, 11:47, said:

on the whole then i'd say worrying about bidding 45 hands optimally isn't worth it.

For the weak 45 hands the difference between optimal (crawling) and acceptable (transfer 5 and pass) bidding is not as big as one might expect anyway. Assuming (for sake of analysis) that 1NT opener cannot have 5cM and will have at most one major doubleton and that a 43 "fit" is worth a 52 "fit", then it looks to me as if the only time crawling beats transfer is when opener has 42 opposite 45 (will find the 44 fit rather than 52) and transfer will beat crawling when opener has 33 opposite 4H5S (will find the 53 fit rather than 43).

[RuflRabbit]

 pescetom, on 2019-October-26, 10:05, said:

For the weak 45 hands the difference between optimal (crawling) and acceptable (transfer 5 and pass) bidding is not as big as one might expect anyway. Assuming (for sake of analysis) that 1NT opener cannot have 5cM and will have at most one major doubleton and that a 43 "fit" is worth a 52 "fit", then it looks to me as if the only time crawling beats transfer is when opener has 42 opposite 45 (will find the 44 fit rather than 52) and transfer will beat crawling when opener has 33 opposite 4H5S (will find the 53 fit rather than 43).

We do open 1NT with 5cM, but even so, simulations support your suggestion that transfer is almost as good for 4=5s as crawling/scrambling. In a small sim, crawling/scrambling was only better on a few % of the weak 4=5s.

The bigger advantage of crawling/scrambling is on the weak 4-4s, where you gain significantly more frequently (in a small sim, ~ 1/6 of the time) relative to passing 1NT. You can get some of this back with garbage stayman when holding at least three diamonds, but do lose out on other hands.

[pescetom]

 RuflRabbit, on 2019-October-27, 01:24, said:

The bigger advantage of crawling/scrambling is on the weak 4-4s, where you gain significantly more frequently (in a small sim, ~ 1/6 of the time) relative to passing 1NT. You can get some of this back with garbage stayman when holding at least three diamonds, but do lose out on other hands.

Right. Although in our case giving up crawling coincided with moving to a marionette response of 2D showing any 1NT without a 5cM, so our garbage capability has changed too, to something more like an unreliable transfer to diamonds. Almost any hand short in clubs is a candidate. A 3-3=5=2 is frequent and perfect, whereas risking the occasional 4-1=7=1 is a good test of blood pressure and partnership. I'd be interested to see that simmed though.

[msjennifer]

 steve2005, on 2019-October-25, 18:42, said:

Seen this in Revision Precision
1N-2♣-2♦-2♥=5♠4♥+ INV+
1N-2♣-2♦-2♠=5♥4♠+ INV+
more space to look for slam or fit for invite as 2M is F1
since 2M is F1 it costs nothing to reverse the bids to right-side

jumping to 3♥/3♠ = 4441 over 2♦

Sir,yes we do play it the way you have quoted it with some partners who use normal Stayman.Playing with a regular partner our 2D reply to a 2C enquiry sometimes helps us to locate a 4/4 major fit.Oh yes. Our 2D reply to 2C enquiry says that openers hand is NOT maximum.It may or may not contain a four card major.Our 2H reply to 2C says i have both majors but a minimum hand and a 2S reply to 2C enquiry shows a maximum hand with both majors.Our 2C guarantees at least one four card major.and 8+HCP (against a 15/17 NT).We have not come across even a single deal so far where crawling Stayman could have been useful.However I DO like the crawling Stayman and think that it is a good way if used discreetly and intelligently. Thanks.

[pescetom]

 msjennifer, on 2019-October-27, 12:29, said:

Sir,yes we do play it the way you have quoted it with some partners who use normal Stayman.Playing with a regular partner our 2D reply to a 2C enquiry sometimes helps us to locate a 4/4 major fit.Oh yes. Our 2D reply to 2C enquiry says that openers hand is NOT maximum.It may or may not contain a four card major.Our 2H reply to 2C says i have both majors but a minimum hand and a 2S reply to 2C enquiry shows a maximum hand with both majors.Our 2C guarantees at least one four card major.and 8+HCP (against a 15/17 NT).

I applaud the effort to avoid gratuitously showing/denying a 4-card major, but giving up on garbage + crawling + 5-card majors seems to me a very high price to pay all the same.

[jade]

After 50 years of playing a number of Staymans, I remain convinced that Garbage is still the best way to go. That being said, I am also convinced that Stayman followed by 2S needs to be 5+ Spades invitational without regard to the number of hearts you hold.

[RuflRabbit]

 jade, on 2019-October-27, 18:44, said:

After 50 years of playing a number of Staymans, I remain convinced that Garbage is still the best way to go. That being said, I am also convinced that Stayman followed by 2S needs to be 5+ Spades invitational without regard to the number of hearts you hold.

Whether 2C then 2S as any 5 spades invitational makes sense depends on what else you might be doing with 2S over 2H. It's a bid with many valuable potential uses.