[thepossum]

Recently had this hand I made the wrong bid but possibly my worst ever IMP score

I really didnt know what to bid but I;m sure almost anything was better than what I bid

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[helene_t]

I think all three options are reasonable. Against good opps there may be an advantage of bidding immediately as that gives them less time to negotiate whether to defend or not.

I voted 2♦ as I have the T9 after all, and partner could have five diamonds. But maybe it's better to pass, just in case partner has some 17+ with 5+ spades. And of course one could try 1♠ and run to 2♦ if it gets doubled.

Pass is a bit risky if partner might take this as penalty. So I wouldn't pass unless I've discussed this situation with p. Actually, thinking about it, it is very reasonably to play pass as penalty here.

[hrothgar]

Partner made a two suited take out and had the option to introduce spades at the one level with a clear preference.

Mark me down for 2♦

[thepossum]

Looks as if everyone except me made the right call

Sadly I passed and it was left in for penalties and makes 12 tricks redoubled

I really hoped that was such a thing as an SOS re-re-double to get partner to bid their best suit

[steve2005]

 thepossum, on 2019-March-31, 18:12, said:

Sadly I passed and it was left in for penalties and makes 12 tricks redoubled

Some people play pass shows a penalty hand. Otherwise with garbage opponents can do a psychic redouble and you now can't penalize unless pass means penalty.

But is it realistic, how often will you have a penalty double of a 1-level contract.
I think pass should be no clear preference.

[thepossum]

Thanks everyone

I don't think I will pass in that situation again. I really thought there was very little chance of it being left in for penalties, and even if it was didnt think it could go that wrong. I actually thought they would bid again and maybe go to game, but clearly they knew they could do better than that

Note, it wasnt actually my worst IMP score but it felt like it. I've been on a redoubled drubbing like that before at the 1 level

[helene_t]

 thepossum, on 2019-March-31, 19:57, said:

I don't think I will pass in that situation again. I really thought there was very little chance of it being left in for penalties, and even if it was didnt think it could go that wrong. I actually thought they would bid again and maybe go to game, but clearly they knew they could do better than that

Oh, you should not expect opps to bid in such situations. They are redoubled in a contract in which they have at lease 7 trumps. They will almost certainly be happy to play that. Even if redouble had not been support, LHO will pass often.

Also, you should not think about whether it will be left in for penalties or not. The issue is whether your pass will be seen by partner as leaving it in for penalties.

The issue is whether your agreement is that your pass is penalty, or whether it is that pass is "no clear preference". I think "no clear preference" is of little use here. P has exactly 4-4 in the unbid suits, or maybe a fifth diamond. You can make your decision based on that. A penalty pass is rare when opps have at least seven hearts. But you could have the remaining six hearts, in that case you will be happy to play pass as penalty.

[thepossum]

Thx

I understand that. But I essentially have a worthless hand almost a Yarborough, 11 losers, 1 point (K-R 0.7!) opposite maybe only a light takeout double. We were vulnerable.

But still, I was not expecting partner to leave it as a redoubled contract so will always bid with this partner in future

Suppose I bid with that hand and partner raises to 3 thinking I have something which is then doubled vulnerable

3 down doubled vulnerable (800), 4H non vulnerable game (420) or a redoubled contract (not knowing how bad it is going to be)

But clearly you never leave in a contract like that in that situation

[helene_t]

 thepossum, on 2019-March-31, 21:01, said:

Suppose I bid with that hand and partner raises to 3 thinking I have something which is then doubled vulnerable

That's partner's problem. You didn't promise him anything.

In the (slightly different) situation
1♦-x-xx-?
it is standard to play pass as "no clear preference". But even then, a bid doesn't promise values. Actually, the way to show a strong hand in that situation is first to pass and then bid again! This obviously doesn't come up often - you will rarely have much when opps open, p doubles and the other opp redoubles.

[thepossum]

I've been checking my duplicate scoring table to work out how to bid those in future. Even 1H xx shouldn't be left in without overtricks really. I guess we could bid and end up -800 but the heart game is more likely. Better for them to bid it than be redoubled into it with an insult (do you get an insult in duplicate?)

Thanks for the advice

[Tramticket]

In responding to a take-out double, it is almost always right to bid you longest suit.

This situation with two suits bid by the opps and us vulnerable, is a risky position for your partner to come in. The opponents haven't shown a fit and might prefer to defend with a misfit, so partner should have a decent hand. I would expect at least four cards in each unbid suit and if it is only 4-4 then extra HCPs. Partner likely has precisely four spades, but may have a poor quality five-card suit. Partner will have at least four diamonds but will often have five or even six diamonds.

From this it can be seen that we will likely be in a 4-3 fit if we bid 1♠, but can expect at least a 4-4 fit in diamonds (and often a nine or ten-card fit). Even though it means playing at the two level, we have a clear preference for diamonds and should bid 2♦. For me, pass simply says that we have no preference and I am surprised that partner left it in for penalties.

[Trinidad]

Hi,

I think your partner got this one wrong.

Pass of 1♥XX can not possibly be for penalty in this situation. Partner told us explicitly that he wanted to play in diamonds or spades. Now I hold a hand that can take at least 7 tricks in hearts (that's what a penalty pass means). What kind of hand would that be? I can think of quite a few hands, but... Would such a hand really pass in second seat over 1♣? I don't think so.

So, logic dictates that pass cannot be for penalty and simply means: "I have nothing to add to the discussion."

But I think that you got it wrong too. IMO you do have something to add to the discussion. I would have bid 2♦. But my reason would not be fear that partner would take pass as penalty. The reason is that I simply want to establish a fit as soon as I can. And I don't promiss anything since partner should have been prepared for me bidding 2♦ (possibly even on a three card suit) without the redouble.

Rik

[Cyberyeti]

This is difficult, your partner probably hoped you held xx, QJ109x, xx, some 4 or similar and decided that 1♥XX=/+1 was still cheaper than the 800/1100 he might be going for in anything he bid if you weren't beating it. You have a fit with him and I'd be bidding 2♦ on your actual hand.

[helene_t]

 Trinidad, on 2019-April-01, 10:00, said:

I think your partner got this one wrong.

Pass of 1♥XX can not possibly be for penalty in this situation. Partner told us explicitly that he wanted to play in diamonds or spades. Now I hold a hand that can take at least 7 tricks in hearts (that's what a penalty pass means). What kind of hand would that be? I can think of quite a few hands, but... Would such a hand really pass in second seat over 1♣? I don't think so.

Yes you are obviously right. For some reason I didn't realize that hearts was not RHO's suit You could conceivably hold 6 good clubs, but not six good hearts.

One more thing, thepossum:
If you think pass would be taken as penalty, then you shouldn't worry that 2♦ (or 1♠) could be more expensive. You have at least an 8-card fit in diamonds. Opps might not double 2♦. If you can only make 5 tricks in diamonds, the law would suggest that opps can make 10 tricks in hearts in their 4-3 fit, and even more if they have more than a 4-3 fit. So 1♥XX will almost certainly be more expensive than 2♦.

At matchpoints, there's also the consideration that 1♥xx will certainly give you a bottom. With 2♦, at least there's a chance that it ends well.

[thepossum]

Thanks everyone

2D would indeed have been a good bid since up to 4D was possible (and therefore 2/3D was safe), assuming of course opps dont bid to 4H which is what they will do in this case. I think either of us should have made an escape bid but clearly I could see the danger more than North so should have made the escape plan, despite North having the good hand

So even with a very weak hand it pays to escape a low level redouble like that I guess

[Cyberyeti]

 thepossum, on 2019-April-01, 17:51, said:

Thanks everyone

2D would indeed have been a good bid since up to 4D was possible (and therefore 2/3D was safe), assuming of course opps dont bid to 4H which is what they will do in this case. I think either of us should have made an escape bid but clearly I could see the danger more than North so should have made the escape plan, despite North having the good hand

So even with a very weak hand it pays to escape a low level redouble like that I guess

There's a big difference between a single and a 2 suited double/redouble. Where partner doubles hearts for takeout, he promises spades or a big hand, but you don't have the guarantee of both other suits so pass is usually "not 4 spades or a 5 card minor" or "no 5 card suit", seen both, but when 2 suits have been bid you can assume 4 spades and 4+ diamonds.