[d20mot]

debate with partner. is adamant that shape should only ever be 5332 4333 or 4432. i say should include suitable 5422 5431 and 4441. i don't mind 6x minor with 322 either Views?

[Cyberyeti]

Depends partly on your response structure, we only do it on 5422s if both minors and honours in the short suits, we will open 6m322, never 5431/4441.

[ggwhiz]

I can think of a lot of hands too good to open 1 of a suit and play it there with this point range as well as rebid problems that are even worse if the same applies to 1nt openers. You are in an anti-field top or bottom position every time you hold 22 pts.

That said my singleton openers have to be A,K or Q and never in a major and I never do it with 5-4-3-1. Just a personal preference.

[pescetom]

Cyberyeti, on 2018-December-08, 09:19, said:

Depends partly on your response structure, we only do it on 5422s if both minors and honours in the short suits, we will open 6m322, never 5431/4441.

It depends partly on your tools, too: I wouldn't even allow 5M332 unless playing Puppet Stayman or similar, and if you want to allow 5M4M22 you should be able to handle that effectively too.

Singletons are a deeper plunge, but 5431 alone is 13% of all hands so it does seem worth the risk at 2NT providing you have adequate agreements. We currently play that one singleton is allowed but it must be an Ace in absence of a 5-card major. I imagine that those who are more liberal about singletons might also modify their transfer agreements.

[fromageGB]

pescetom, on 2018-December-08, 11:07, said:

We currently play that one singleton is allowed but it must be an Ace in absence of a 5-card major.

You used to play 2NT with two singletons, then, but found it didn't work very well?

[fromageGB]

pescetom, on 2018-December-08, 11:07, said:

Singletons are a deeper plunge, but 5431 alone is 13% of all hands so it does seem worth the risk at 2NT providing you have adequate agreements.

If you have no forcing strong 3-suited bid, then I agree it seems feeble to open and play at the 1-level. But a real 3-suiter bid allows you to exploit the shape.

[fromageGB]

d20mot, on 2018-December-08, 09:08, said:

Views?

In the absence of a 3-suiter bid I agree with you, apart from the 6 card minor. I see no problem with 1m : if partner cannot reply you are unlikely to be missing anything. If you feel you are too strong for that, then 2♣ (or your strong general purpose bid) is more likely to get you to the correct spot.

[The_Badger]

Welcome to the forum

I see from your profile that you play Benji Acol, so if you feel a little uncomfortable around the edges opening 2NT with slightly off shape hands including singletons, you could incorporate a variation of the Kokish convention into the 2♣ bids (although that would probably work better with Reverse Benji - I've never been enamoured with Benji, but's a personal opinion) to show these hands, or even possibly after a 2♦ opening. Failing that you could adopt 2♣ as the big hand with a Multi 2♦, still with some Kokish aspects.

https://www.bridgeha...okish_Relay.htm

What I am effectively saying is that I'm not keen myself opening 2NT with a singleton, even a singleton ace, but sometimes you have to lie to partner about your shape. Strong 4441's are notoriously difficult, and so are 5431's where the five card suit is a major.

If you adapt a series of relays around your two strong openings, that will get around most scenarios but there are always holes whatever conventions and systems you play: none is prefect.

I'm more inclined to open 2NT with 4441 with a minor suit singleton than a major, though I hate bidding it.
5431 with a 5m I will chance opening at the one level generally.
5431 with a 5M I might open at the one level but I very conscious of missing a game.
6m322 is always for me a 2NT opener, except if the main suit is dire.
5422 is similar to 5431 except there's no singleton, so if the five card suit is a minor I might open at the one level or 2NT. If it's major I would probably open 2NT, etc.

Obviously, this all is dependent on the actual cards in your hand. I hope this helps.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

you want to make the 2NT opener more frequent, but also less precise.
It may be possible, but usually peoble try to make the 2NT bid more precise,
if you do what you intend, you need art. / conventional agreements to minize
the issue: youu dont have much room, e.g. if you add 6 carder, you will loose
out on minor slams, you will feel inclined to upgrade 18/19 hands with 6 carders
to 2NT openers, otherwise: 22HCP and a 6 carder is usually worth more than 22.
5m4M22 is certainly ok without special agreements, otherwise I would stick with
the balnced hand types, + 4441 (this shape does not exist).

With kind regards
Marlowe

[rmnka447]

Hands do come up where the strict rules that your partner wants to impose can cause problems. How about something like ♠ AK ♥ AKx ♦ AQ ♣ 10xxxxx? The only practical bid seems to me to be 2 NT. If you open 1 ♣ on this example hand, then you have a severe rebid problem if the hand isn't passed out? Also, with something like ♠ AK ♥ AK ♦ QJxx ♣ Kxxxx, opening 2 NT would seem preferable to reversing or jump shifting in the minors with such lousy suits.

Where you might seek some compromise is to assure partner that if you decide to allow 2 NT openers with off shape hands that it won't be carte blanche to open all off shape hands with 20-22 HCP 2 NT. Rather it should only include those hands where bidding anything else would present a greater challenge to finding the right place than 2 NT.

Dick Bruno, a top Chicago player, lectured on bidding problem hands at a local regional several ago. He proffered what he called the "one card off" principle for problem hands. If no bids seems to fit the hand, then you ask yourself if one small card was different, what would you bid? If you find something that would fit, then you can make that bid and know that you're only one card off from that bid which would be the least egregious lie. In the above examples, if you asked yourself what would you bid if a small ♣ were a major card, you'd easily come to 2 NT as the bid you'd make.

Finally, if worse comes to worse and partner won't budge, you can always try the ploy of bidding 2 NT and then apologize saying "Sorry, partner I thought a ____ was a ____". But don't do that too often or you'll risk partnership trust. Save it for the 1 in 1000 hands, where bidding 2 NT just absolutely seems to be necessary.

[PhilG007]

d20mot, on 2018-December-08, 09:08, said:

debate with partner. is adamant that shape should only ever be 5332 4333 or 4432. i say should include suitable 5422 5431 and 4441. i don't mind 6x minor with 322 either Views?

The yardstick for NT bidding is that the hand should not contain more than one doubleton

[pescetom]

PhilG007, on 2018-December-09, 06:41, said:

The yardstick for NT bidding is that the hand should not contain more than one doubleton

It used to be.
And before that, it was that the hand should not contain more than one doubleton and should not contain a 5-card major.
And before that, it was that the hand should not contain more than one doubleton and should not contain a 5-card suit.

Bidding changes in time, like all languages.

[pescetom]

fromageGB, on 2018-December-08, 12:05, said:

You used to play 2NT with two singletons, then, but found it didn't work very well?

I assume you're kidding, but no, we used to play that one singleton was allowed and it must be an Ace, period.

[PhilG007]

pescetom, on 2018-December-09, 07:51, said:

It used to be.
And before that, it was that the hand should not contain more than one doubleton and should not contain a 5-card major.
And before that, it was that the hand should not contain more than one doubleton and should not contain a 5-card suit.

Bidding changes in time, like all languages.

I may be of the Old Guard but I've found that the old ways and the tried and trusted methods are the best.

[Cyberyeti]

pescetom, on 2018-December-09, 07:51, said:

It used to be.
And before that, it was that the hand should not contain more than one doubleton and should not contain a 5-card major.
And before that, it was that the hand should not contain more than one doubleton and should not contain a 5-card suit.

Bidding changes in time, like all languages.

No singleton, only one doubleton was the way I was brought up. No 5M went when decent 5 card stayman methods came in (don't need to be puppet methods. I don't normally play puppet). I'm not old enough to remember no 5m332s I learned my bidding in the mid 70s.

It does change over time, but allowing 5m4M22 for example costs you accuracy in some sequences, it's a tradeoff.

I think people who habitually play a strong NT are more comfortable with off classical shape NT openers, and that carries through into the choices for 2N and 2♣-2♦-2N.

[msjennifer]

Sir.I ,personally, tend to disagree with Minka wherein an opening of 2NT is suggested on AK.AKx,AQ,10xxxxx.Partner raises to 3 holding xxx,xx,Kxxx,QJ9x and you go down on a spade (5-3) lead when 5C is there for taking.

[msjennifer]

Sir.duplicate post deleted.

[pescetom]

Cyberyeti, on 2018-December-09, 10:56, said:

No singleton, only one doubleton was the way I was brought up. No 5M went when decent 5 card stayman methods came in (don't need to be puppet methods. I don't normally play puppet). I'm not old enough to remember no 5m332s I learned my bidding in the mid 70s.

I too avoid puppet when partner allows. I doubt anyone is old enough to remember actually playing no 5m, unless they fought in the Second World War.

Cyberyeti, on 2018-December-09, 10:56, said:

I think people who habitually play a strong NT are more comfortable with off classical shape NT openers, and that carries through into the choices for 2N and 2♣-2♦-2N.

Yes I can see that playing weak 1NT with unpredictable shape would take some nerve Allowing an Ace singleton with strong 1NT doesn't seem to provoke a significant number of disasters, at least if you have good methods to locate any major fit in the most common hand shapes. Of course 2NT or higher is so relatively infrequent in itself that it would be hard to identify a sure problem even if it was present, and a good part of responses are 'seat of pants' 3NT anyway.

[nige1]

d20mot, on 2018-December-08, 09:08, said:

debate with partner. is adamant that shape should only ever be 5332 4333 or 4432. i say should include suitable 5422 5431 and 4441. i don't mind 6x minor with 322 either Views?

With a human partner, who will lean over backwards to keep the bidding open, you should be fairly orthodox, unless you have specific agreements.
Playing with GIB, who will often pass a 1-bid with 5HCP, IMO, you should stretch strength and shape requirements, For example, you should open 2N on some 19 counts, especially if the alternative is a 3-card minor.. You should open 2N with 5422 and 6322 shapes. Also 4441, 5431, and 6331 shapes with a singleton minor.

[roninbc]

Cyberyeti, on 2018-December-09, 10:56, said:

I'm not old enough to remember no 5m332s I learned my bidding in the mid 70s.

Well, I learned to play a decade earlier than the mid-70's, but even at that "late" date, playing Precision, my regular partner and I would not open 1NT (weak) with two 4-card majors, not to mention any 5 card suits.

If you weren't 4333 or 4432 with at least one 4-card minor, you opened something else (usually 1D).