[straube]

Say next hand preempts 2D after a strong club...a popular method is for dbl to show a balanced hand of 5+ hcps or an 8+ hcp hand with one or more suits.
That clarifies at least what 1C (2D) dbl P 2S P 3H means (GF with hearts).

Wondering what the 2S bid means. I would think 5 spades unless opener has 4 spades and no diamond stopper? What would 1C (2D) dbl P 2S P 3S mean then? Promises four spades? Three spades?

If double promises only a balanced hand, it will be far more frequent, but the bidding seems awkward (possible 4-2 fits for example).

If I remember right, IMprecision uses double for takeout. Would double after 1C (2D) promise at least 3-3 in the majors? What would 1C (2D) dbl P 2S P 3C mean? Forcing? Something like 3-4-1-5? 6-7?

If IMprecision double is takeout, then pass 2D with Kx Kxxx xx Jxxxx? I'm giving a difficult hand on purpose just to get clarity. A preempt of even 2D can create a lot of difficulty.

[benlessard]

I ve tried many stuff and regular neg is what I prefer. I like to play that opener rebid of 2M is not even forcing.

[helene_t]

I would play 2♥/♠ as NF, promising only four cards. As a responder, I wouldn't pass it with a doubleton.

Responder holding a semipositive with hearts and clubs is awkward. Maybe over opener's 2♠, 2NT is ostensibly 5♥4♣. I think we can live without the natural 2NT bid in this spot.

[straube]

Ben, could you detail your method for 1C (2D) ? Continuations, too, please.

I'm wondering about showing 4-cd major suits.

1C (2D)
..........dbl-4+ hearts
...............2H-3 or 4 hearts, nf
....................any bid=GF
...............2S-4+S (forcing?)
...............2N-0-2 hearts, nf (stopper not required but opener will usually have one)
..........2H-4+ spades
...............2S-3 or 4 spades, nf
...............2N-0-2 spades, nf (stopper not required)

I looked at hands that were showing specifically 4 hearts here and it seems like a fit was found a third of the time. Also a lot of 4-3 fits.

[foobar]

IMPrecision uses negative X, with 2-level transfers only to suits that could been bid naturally at the 2-level over their interference. With this hand, my vote be for a natural 3♣ (GF).

It might be a little bit of a stretch, but we rank to make some game opposite opener's presumed 17-19 balanced hand. Opener will presumably bid a 5+CM @ the 3-level and 3♦ would presumably be a stall looking for a 4-4 major fit (or less likely a slam cue in ♣.

[straube]

I found the following on a Google thread. What I've been wondering is whether dbl has to be takeout shape or not. If it shows takeout shape that really limits its frequency and it also means that there is less meaning for rebids. For example 1C (2D) dbl P 2S P 3C means what? 3-4-1-5? Nf? Just a narrow target.
In the following scheme, dbl has a prepared bid...like 5-8 bal is ok if it has a stopper. So you can have 1C (2D) dbl P 2S P 2N without a problem or 1C (2D) dbl P 3S P 3N also without a problem. The 9+ with a suit can obviously be difficult if opener takes up much room.

A - immediate bid of a suit (except cuebid of opps suit) = 5-8 hcp, 5+ cards.

B - notrump = 9+ hcp, at least one stopper in opps suit, no suit worth bidding.

C - Cuebid = 9+ hcp, no stopper in opps suit, no suit worth bidding.

D - Double = 1 of 3 hands:
1) 9+ hcp w/ a 5+ card suit (bids suit at next turn).
2) 5-8 hcp w/ support (3+ cards) for all unbid suits. (raises opener next.)
3) 5-8 hcp w/ a stopper in enemy suit (bids nt at next turn)

E - Pass = either nothing to say, or wants to penalize the opps. Opener
is encouraged to reopen with shortness in the enemy suit, if he can stand
a penalty pass.

[DinDIP]

We have been using X as takeout for decades, first in conjunction with negative free bids, then negative free bids only at the two-level, then with transfers. In all instances double followed by a new suit has been GF, showing a flexible hand. For many years we also had an exception: double followed by the cheapest new suit after opener bids the cheapest or next-cheapest suit is equal-level conversion with semi-positive values, e.g.
1♣ (2♦) X (P)
2♥ (P) 2♠ == something like 4-2-2-5, 5-7
and
1♣ (2♦) X (P)
2♠ (P) 3♣ == something like 2-4-2-5, 5-7
This exception was to cater for the problem hands you identify.

In the last decade we've dropped that exception to have a simple, consistent rule that was better at handling the more important hands: those with GF+ values and an interest in more than one strain.

On the rare occasions the problem hands (that we previously handled with equal-level conversion) have occured we have usually just doubled and then treated them as GF hands, on the principle that it is better to find the right strain. While a major issue in theory, in practice such hands are (surprisingly, pleasingly) infrequent, and opener frequently has some extras.

[straube]

It seems like 1C (2D) dbl P 2N needs to be GF and promising a stopper. Otherwise opener is fixed when holding a stopper and a four-card major.

Then 1C (2D) dbl P 3D can deny a stopper and show interest in one or both majors.

[Trick13]

Whatever your double means it should cater for:

1♣ (2♦) X (4♦)
or
1♣ (2♠ ) X (3♠)

Having played it both ways, these days I prefer immediate bids to be game forcing. But if you knew the opponents weren't going to compete higher, then the opposite would be better.

[straube]

From Dan's book "Standard Modern Precision" he recommends dbl as 6-7 promising a rebid (unless opener rebids 2N) or 8+ balanced without a stopper. So...

1C (2D)...

dbl-6-7
.....2M-5+ cds and forcing
..........2S-5S, nf
.....2N-nf (stopper promised if partnership agreement)
.....3C-5+ cds and forcing
.....3D-no suit or stopper

2M-8+ natural
2N-8+ stopper
3C-8+ natural
3D-?
3M-6-7, natural?

or I might rearrange to

2H-8+ spades
.....2S-hearts
2S-8+ hearts
2N-8+ stopper
3C-8+ clubs
3D-6-7, 6 hearts
3H-6-7, 6 spades
3S-8+, 3-suited short diamonds

What I like about this is that opener doesn't have to jump or cue to force because the dbl promises a rebid. It would be easy to extend this idea to agree that opener can continue to force by offering new suits.

What I don't like about using dbl as takeout shape (6+ hcps) is that "6-7 takeout" is on the order of 10% of the 6+ hcp hands available (super small sample size so take with a bowl of salt) which means that for 10% of the time you have really uncomfortable auctions...such as...

1C (2D) dbl P

2H-nf
2S-nf
2N-nf
3C-nf
3D-forcing, looking for fit
3M-GF, sets trump

Any thoughts?

[straube]

Well, I tested a few hands and quickly found that opener often has a problem when not holding a 5-cd major or balanced with a stopper. If opener has takeout shape or a minimum hand with long clubs, he has a problem. If opener is allowed to rebid a 4-cd major (as a least of evils) it seems more playable but sometimes a 4-3 fit at the 3-level will be reached (and the 4-cd suit may be taking the tap).

[awm]

If you decide that double promises a rebid, it seems like you are basically forcing game when partner doesn’t have a 5M and rebids something like 2nt or 3C. This doesn’t really seem optimal.

If opener has a 5M he will balance over 1C-2D-P-P anyway, and if he has a minimum balanced hand with 3+ diamonds and I have 6-7 balanced with 3+ diamonds it seems like defending might be our best bet anyway. A lot of auctions time out better if I pass with diamond length and bid with diamond shortage, plus the more diamonds I hold the less chance a raise is coming (and of course if they raise and it comes back and I double it’s exactly this hand of 5-7 bal with diamond length/strength and very penalty oriented).

The takeout double helps us compete when opener would not balance (most typically the min balanced hand with diamond length) by giving opener a safe 2M bid. And of course we play lebensohl here (creating many options for opener to GF after the double by bidding 3C or 2nt...cue or 2nt...3M etc with the NF opener continuations being 2M, 2nt and drop in clubs, or of course pass and defend).

[straube]

awm, on 2018-August-25, 08:15, said:

The takeout double helps us compete when opener would not balance (most typically the min balanced hand with diamond length) by giving opener a safe 2M bid. And of course we play lebensohl here (creating many options for opener to GF after the double by bidding 3C or 2nt...cue or 2nt...3M etc with the NF opener continuations being 2M, 2nt and drop in clubs, or of course pass and defend).

I was totally missing that you used Lebensohl here. Responder doesn't rebid 3C with a GF hand then.

So 1C (2D) dbl P 2N P 3C can be passed. I'm supposing that 1C (2D) dbl P 2N P 3C P 3M is GF with a stopper and 4M.

What would 2N and then a 3D (cue) rebid be?

How about the meaning of 1C (2D) 2H P 2N P 3C P 3D?

Is 1N Lebensohl after 1S interference? Or 2N?

After 1C (2D) how do you proceed with AKJx xx xxx Jxxx? Is that a 3D bid? If you pass with that and opener doubles, then what? 3S forcing? 3D? I like the idea of passing with diamond length but then one has to differentiate awkward 6-7 from GF 8+ and I'm not sure how to do that.

[awm]

We don’t use Lebensohl over 1C-2D directly, only over double by opener or responder. We also don’t invite opposite the double; we use:

2nt...3M = 4M and diamond stop, GF COG
Direct 3M = 5+M or 4M w/o diamond stop, GF
3D = GF no diamond stop 2-places to play
3C = GF natural
2nt...3D = 44 in two unbid suits with a diamond stop

Responder normally bids 3d over 2nt with a GF hand, 3M would be a five card suit (rare, some inferences around X with a 5M and GF).

We do also play something Lebebsohl like after 1C-2D-2H (spades) since balanced minimum is bidding 2S. Basically 2nt here is club sign off or heart signoff or some GF with a diamond stopper. Maybe most useful is 2nt..3s to show a doubleton spade with a stopper and game values (lets responder pick 4S if he has six).

We would also play this way after 1C-2C (natural); the choice of games bids with 4M and a stop are really valuable and natural 2nt is pretty useless (if I don’t have a 4-card suit outside the opponents suit I am usually passing the double).

[straube]

Thanks. This is really helpful.

I’m still wondering what yo do with AKJx xx xxx Jxxx. It isn’t takeout shape. Do you cue 3D directly? GF bal no stopper? Or GF bal no stopper and two places to play. (trouble then with 4-3-3-3)? Either way I suppose this hand can rebid 3N without a stopper, relying on opener to pull.

If the interference were 2H I suppose you could use
3H-6S semi positive
3S-4S GF bal no stopper

but this doesn’t work for diamond interference unless you go
3D-6H semipositive
3H-4H GF bal no stopper
3S-4S GF bal no stopper

What do you think? How do you use these bids?

[awm]

straube, on 2018-August-25, 10:47, said:

Thanks. This is really helpful.

I’m still wondering what yo do with AKJx xx xxx Jxxx. It isn’t takeout shape. Do you cue 3D directly? GF bal no stopper? Or GF bal no stopper and two places to play. (trouble then with 4-3-3-3)? Either way I suppose this hand can rebid 3N without a stopper, relying on opener to pull.

If the interference were 2H I suppose you could use
3H-6S semi positive
3S-4S GF bal no stopper

but this doesn’t work for diamond interference unless you go
3D-6H semipositive
3H-4H GF bal no stopper
3S-4S GF bal no stopper

What do you think? How do you use these bids?

It's simple enough to agree that a direct cuebid is GF with one 4-card unbid major, no five-card suit, and length but no stopper in the opponents suit. This seems to handle all your examples.

[straube]

I’m assuming opener has 2N as Lebensohl after 1S interference, mostly to check on a heart fit.

It would be nice if 1C (2D) P P 2H P 3D could be a GF heart raise but there are still a few hands that need to ask for stoppers.

Thanks a lot. It seemed like there was high value in making a 2N rebid forcing but never occurred to me to use it as Lebensohl, same as you do after transfers. Clears up so much.

[DinDIP]

Hi Adam
I’m curious about your choice to use Lebensohl in auctions like
1♣ (2♦) X (P)
rather than Rubensohl.

I’ve always found Rubensohl to be more helpful than Lebensohl when the alternatives are invitational or GF+ AND there is a reasonable likelihood that the opponents may compete further. Lebensohl is a better option when there are three ranges or only a choice between INV and competitive ranges. (I note that Bo-Yin Yang advocated Rubensohl in all these kind of auctions in Terrorist Moscito.)

In this auction further competition is obviously highly unlikely but does that make Lebensohl more appealing?

It’s a question of how to allocate the space most usefully, how best to minimise wrong-siding and the degree to which consistency with other parts of the system is important.

Playing Rubensohl responder accepts the transfer with a minimum. Higher bids are GF and natural. (Note that means a different set of information is available compared with Lebensohl. Using Lebensohl, opener immediately shows GF or less-than-GF; if opener is GF then he doesn’t get to ascertain responder’s strength. Playing Rubensohl opener doesn’t show his strength immediately but always gets to know what responder’s strength is.)

Concern about wrong-siding means
1♣ (2♦) X (P)
3♦
shows a GF hand with long clubs, no four+card major and less than half a stopper (because 2N shows long clubs and -- if GF -- promises at least K/Qx/Jxx in the opponent’s suit; and 3♣ would be asking about stoppers and majors). Note that wrong-siding isn’t an issue in auctions like this one where the Rubensohl bidder is under the opponent’s suit (because if responder has a stopper it will always be over the suit) -- but it is consistent with what we do in other Rubensohl auctions where the bid is directly over the opponent’s suit, so wrong-siding is a concern.

The biggest loss, it seems to me is not being able to distinguish between hands that really want to play in 3N and those that want to show a stopper but allow partner to remove. (In general we jump to 3N to show the former and bid 2N (if Lebensohl) then 3N with the latter.

David

[awm]

Rubensohl gets the siding wrong here because we generally want opener to declare (especially on the 4M-plus-stopper hands which are quite common). All the three level auctions here are GF so we’re not trying to distinguish weak vs game hands (except in clubs where the responder 3d cue can only help us); auctions seem to tempo better in lebensohl.

The big advantage you’re getting from Rubensohl is the quest for half stoppers but two half stops isn’t great with two flat hands (you tend not to be able to hold up so you really need nine off the top and that’s rare without a long suit).

In general I’ve found Rubensohl is not so good opposite a takeout double; this auction feels more like (2D)-dbl than like 1nt-(2D)-bid.

[straube]

I’m hung up on 1S interference. It could be the case of “too many bids”.

Like if I want opener to declare NT and search for a 4-4 heart fit then
1C(1S) dbl P 2N P 3C P 3S? Or 3H?

If opener lacks a spade stopper but has 4 hearts and wants to GF then
1C(1S) P 3H?

But there’s 1C (1S) dbl P 2S which would deny a stopper and could search for fits up the line....including hearts

And 1C (1S) dbl P 3S probably is undefined whereas 1C (2S) dbl P 3S would be.....I don’t actually know that either because opener could just force with 3C, 3D, or 3H here (if he had either 5 or if he had 4 with no stopper).

Would you please explain how you continue 1C (1S) dbl?