[straube]

1C-1S (16+, 5-9 and balanced or 6D or 5+D/4H or 5+D/4C)
2H-? (minimum with 5H and 4+ other suit)

3H-raise
3D-6D, minimum
3C-6D/4C, minimum
2N-D/C, minimum
.....P-4S
.....3m-fit
2S-GF relay
.....2N-clubs
.....3C-4 spades
..........3D-asks
...............3H-4513
...............3S-4531
...............3N-4522
.....3D-5H/5D or 6H/4D
..........3H-asks
...............3S-5/5
...............3N-6/4
.....3H-1543
.....3S-3541
.....3N-2542

[Kungsgeten]

Do you really need a GF relay here, when both hands are limited? Perhaps it makes it easier to find some thin slams, but I think I'd focus on finding the right game or partscore.

[straube]

Kungsgeten, on 2018-June-03, 13:03, said:

Do you really need a GF relay here, when both hands are limited? Perhaps it makes it easier to find some thin slams, but I think I'd focus on finding the right game or partscore.

I'm pretty much only interested in the best game or part score. What continuations would you suggest?

[nullve]

straube, on 2018-June-03, 11:56, said:

1C-1S (16+, 5-9 and balanced or 6D or 5+D/4H or 5+D/4C)
2H-? (minimum with 5H and 4+ other suit)

There's a somewhat analogous situation in my system after

1♥-1N ("10-21, 5+ H, unBAL"; "5-12, NF")
2♣-2♦ ("Gazzilli": either "13-15, 5H4+O" or "16-18, any"; "8+, relay")
2♥ (12-14, 5H5m or 13.15, 5H4O).

I consider Opener's "3-point" range ({rule of 22, rule of 23, rule of 24}) narrow enough that invites to 3N or 4♥ are unnecessary, and I want to be able to get out in 2♠ instead of 2N with 13-15, 4S5H opposite 8-9/10, 3S1-H, just like if 2♥ were Flannery. So the GF relay has to be 2N rather than 2♠.

Then, for example:

1♥-1N; 2♣-2♦; 2♥-?:

P = 8-9/10, 2 H
2♠ = 8-9/10, 3S1-H
2N = GF relay
...3♣ = 12-14, 5H5C or 13-15, 5H4C
......3♦ = relay
.........3♥ = 12-14, 5H5C or 13-15, 2524
............3♠ = relay
...............3N = 2524
...............4♣+ = 5H5C
............(...)
.........3♠ = 13-15, 1534 (0544)
.........3N = 13-15, 3514 (4504)
......(...)
...3♦ = 13-15, 4S5H, no void
......3♥ = anti-SPL C OR relay
.........3♠ = 4513
.........3N = 4522
.........4♣ = 4531
......3♠ = anti-SPL D
.........3N = 4522 or 4531
.........4♣ = 4513
......(...)
...3♥ = 12-14, 5H5D or 13-15, 2542
......3♠ = relay
.........3N = 2542
.........4♣+ = 5H5D
......(...)
...3♠ = 13-15, 1543 (0544)
...3N = 13-15, 3541 (4540)
3m = 8-9/10, usually 2-S1-H6+m

Using 2N as a GF relay and and 3m as 2-S1-H6+m actually creates a problem for me when Responder has 8-9/10 and 2155, so I've also tried a couple of other things. But there's no analogous problem in IMprecision, since Responder can't be weak with 2-S1-H4-D6+C.

[straube]

Thank you nullve. That is quite analogous. You even ordered the suits C/S/D the same.

Maybe you can help with a similar problem. I'm looking at 1C-1S, 2N which for me is 5+S/4H and minimum. Not 5/5. I'm thinking...

P-misfit, minimum
3C-Lebensohl
.....3D-pass or correct
..........P-6D
.........3H-4H, to play
.........3S-3S, to play
.........3N-GF 2 spades
3D-GF, 6D
3H-GI, 4 hearts
3S-GI, 3 spades
3N-to play

So I need to be able to sign off and invite in a major. I need to be able to look for 6-2 spade fits. It would be nice to be able to pattern out opener's hand and nice to be able to invite with diamonds, but I don't think I can get all of that.

<Maybe 3D just asks for pattern...then 5413, 5431, 5422

This post has been edited by straube: 2018-June-03, 18:12

[straube]

Working now on 1C-1S, 2S which I'm using for 5S/4+m

I'm robbed some bidding room here.

P-minimum, 2 or 3 spades
3S-raise
3D-to play
3C-both minors
2N-GF ask
.....3C-clubs
.....3D-5S/5D or 6S/4D
.....3H-5143
.....3S-5341
.....3N-5242

I'll get too high if I try to relay clubs. Suggestions?

Don't really like this, but I'm using 1C-1S, 3H now for 4S/6H minimum and 1C-1S, 3S for 6S/4H minimum. Doing so eliminates these hand patterns from the relays.

[nullve]

straube, on 2018-June-03, 17:25, said:

Maybe you can help with a similar problem. I'm looking at 1C-1S, 2N which for me is 5+S/4H and minimum. Not 5/5. I'm thinking...

P-misfit, minimum
3C-Lebensohl
.....3D-pass or correct
..........P-6D
.........3H-4H, to play
.........3S-3S, to play
.........3N-GF 2 spades
3D-GF, 6D
3H-GI, 4 hearts
3S-GI, 3 spades
3N-to play

So I need to be able to sign off and invite in a major. I need to be able to look for 6-2 spade fits. It would be nice to be able to pattern out opener's hand and nice to be able to invite with diamonds, but I don't think I can get all of that.

<Maybe 3D just asks for pattern...then 5413, 5431, 5422

Idea:

1♣-1♠; ?:

(with Opener's ranges left out)

1N: now also with 1444 or 4H5+m
2♦: now also with 5+S4+H, but no longer with 1444 or 4H5+m
...2♥
......2♠: now also with 5+S4+H (5-2 or better S fit practically guaranteed)
......2N/3m = ?
......other: as before (say)
...2♠
......2N = 5S4H (5-2 or better S fit not guaranteed, 4-4 H fit possible)
......3m = ?
......other: as before (say)
...2N
......3♣ = 6+ H
......3♦ = 5s4H (with similar continuations as after 1♣-1♠; 2♥-2N; 3♦ above)
......3♥+ = 6+ S
...(...)
2♥: as above
2♠: no longer with 4+ H
other: as in IMprecision / no opinion

Ideally, Opener's unBAL range here is smaller than the "16-19" in the 2009 compendium, since invites to 3N are generally no longer available.

[straube]

You've reminded me that I have the 2D bid to handle 6M/4OM hands. Spaced it. So I can keep 1C-1S, 3M as invitational with a good suit.

Curious what Adam and Sieong are doing with 6M/4m as well as 6M/5m. I'm guessing they would rebid 2D with the first and 2M with the latter.
So I can possibly eliminate the 6M/4m from the relay and get 5/5 high vs low short

Nullve, I think I see how your scheme is capable of playing 2S with that 5S/4H hand (and eliminating overloading the 1C-1S, 2S bid) but the tradeoffs are a little high. I'm not too concerned with being forced to play 3M when I have a fit.

Any thought on the 1C-1S, 2S-2N, 3C problem?

[nullve]

straube, on 2018-June-04, 10:31, said:

Working now on 1C-1S, 2S which I'm using for 5S/4+m

I'm robbed some bidding room here.

P-minimum, 2 or 3 spades
3S-raise
3D-to play
3C-both minors
2N-GF ask
.....3C-clubs
.....3D-5S/5D or 6S/4D
.....3H-5143
.....3S-5341
.....3N-5242

I'll get too high if I try to relay clubs. Suggestions?

Don't really like this, but I'm using 1C-1S, 3H now for 4S/6H minimum and 1C-1S, 3S for 6S/4H minimum. Doing so eliminates these hand patterns from the relays.

Idea:

1♣-1♠; 2♠-2N; ?:

3♣/3♥/3♠/3N: similar to what I suggested over 1♣-1♠; 2♥; 2N.
3♦: idle!

Obviously better:

1♣-1♠; 2♠-2N; ?:

3♣ = as above, but SPL D if 5S5+C
3♦ = 5S5+m, SPL H
...3♥ = relay
......E.g.:
......3♠ = 5125 or 5035
......3N = 5152 or 5053
......(...)
...(...)
3♥: as above, but SPL C if 5S5+D
3♠/N: as above.

[straube]

Just recapping, but you are thinking...

1C-1S, 2S-2N, 3C-3D

3H-5/5 or 5224
.....3S-ask
..........3N-5224
..........4C-5/5
3S-5134
3N-5314

You don't get to the 4-level unless responder gives permission (which is nice). I had...

3H-5134
3S-5314
3N-5224
4C-5125
4D-5215

Thanks for the suggestion.