[MrAce]

 cherdano, on 2017-March-31, 14:37, said:

I can't believe anyone would pass this. If 4H breaks this partnership, then you should be glad to get out.
Oh. And if you were taught that 4H shows 8 tricks at equal vulnerability, then it's about time to drop out of the class and start forgetting what you were taught.


This hand makes 7 tricks in hearts, and 0 elsewhere. End of story.

This!
I wanted to write and in fact did write similar things yesterday in this topic but then I realized I was too harsh to passers and deleted, decided not to post. Arend said it more polite than I could.
Even thought of passing sounds insane to me!

[sfi]

Sometimes bridge is about logic and exchanging lots of information to achieve the best possible score on the hand, and sometimes it is a guessing game where both sides are at risk of making a mistake, no matter what action can take. Part of the skill is knowing which type of hand you are playing at the moment, and how to sway the odds in your favour once you have made that decision.

If you pass now, you will have a lot more information that may help you to decide how many hearts to bid. Your partner will also know whether it is right to compete or double. Problem is, the opponents will gain those same advantages. So the first thing you need to decide is which type of hand it is. Only then can you work out whether you want to bid and how much.

On the actual hand, if I bid 4H LHO is likely to have a real problem. They might get it right, they might not, and they might not have a good choice. But what I do know is that if they get it wrong partner will know to double. Sure, partner may play me for honours in my suit and we get to 5H when it's our hand. But they may not be able to double, or they might sacrifice over it, or we might just make when hearts are 1-1. If I pass, the opponents will work out where their fit is and each get a chance to express their opinion on whether they want to play game.

So when I bid 4H we are way ahead in the guessing game, and I like those odds. I don't like our odds when I pass. Hence 4H it is.

[the hog]

I gree with Arend. This is an obvious opening pre empt. 4H. I do not believe that any player in an expert game would pass this.

[FelicityR]

On my first post on this discussion I passed. I still - perhaps a bit reluctantly as I have seen the poll - pass, even though the 4♥ bidders or pre-empters outnumber us 'passers' on the poll by 3 to 1 as I write.

I was given sound advice years ago: Never pre-empt your partner. I take on board that pre-empts have got lighter and lighter in recent years, and that this hand hasn't got any tricks outside the trump suit so, on the face of it, is suitable for a pre-empt.

So I'd rather bid 3♥ on the rule of 2/3 than 4♥ if any pre-empt is to be made. 4♥ promises more than this 'horrid suit' as someone commented. Actually, no-one's commented that while 4♥ takes a level away from the opponents, it could possibly also bounce the opponents into a slam easier as a suit, 4NT, or double bid over 4♥ by North would be seen as stronger than a similar bid over 3♥, especially at this vulnerability with a passed partner.

[cherdano]

The problem with 3H is that we may be scoring 10 tricks. Partner wouldn't raise with the singleton Queen of trumps and two aces.

Here is the thing. If LHO opponent has most of the values, we obviously want to preempt him, and bid 4H. But if partner has mostarted of the values, then 4H is extremely likely to be the right contract, and so we want to bid 4H. (It may be the only way to get there depending on your methods over partners 1S opening...)

[cherdano]

 MrAce, on 2017-March-31, 16:16, said:

Arend said it more polite than I could.

Now that's a first!!!

[silvr bull]

 cherdano, on 2017-April-01, 00:48, said:

The problem with 3H is that we may be scoring 10 tricks. Partner wouldn't raise with the singleton Queen of trumps and two aces.

Partner may need only HAJ and the DK. I did open 4H, and 6H is a walk in the park:

---

Unfortunately, Murphy's Law continues to be enforced, and our bidding is not shown because it was not optimal. This could be a fun hand to test bid with your partner (to avoid misinterpretations) if West passes first, or opens 4H. Most pairs bid 6H and took 12 tricks. One pair bid and made 6NT when S led a S to East's ace, then won the DK (after the HA&K), but guessed to continue S. A few pairs that bid 7H or 7NT were not as lucky. The prize for "most unlucky" went to an E-W pair that were -2,800 after West passed first (passing the West hand can be dangerous!), East redoubled 5NT (which can be defeated only by a low D lead at trick one or a D shift by North at trick two), West sat for the XX (I wish I had that much self control ), and East won the opening C lead but then "misclicked" a few times in the play. Thanks for the comments.

[msjennifer]

 cherdano, on 2017-March-31, 14:37, said:

I can't believe anyone would pass this. If 4H breaks this partnership, then you should be glad to get out.
Oh. And if you were taught that 4H shows 8 tricks at equal vulnerability, then it's about time to drop out of the class and start forgetting what you were taught.


This hand makes 7 tricks in hearts, and 0 elsewhere. End of story.

It appears you want to teach EIGHT voters to drop out of the class.I have not seen even a single renowned book on bidding various systems advocating to open with s bid Of 4 H on the garbage hand.Perhaps your new book may change the face of bridge and I wish good luck to you.Your super champion intentions are meant only to obstruct opponents and also your partner.I follow what is given in the text books and my teacher ,who has international repute having won many events like the Reisinger et all.He just asked me to IGNORE your and others comments saying "They have the right to open 4H ,but at the same time they are not ENTTLED to ridicule others not agreeing with them".A very POLITE answer indeed ! So I shall just ignore the rebukes and continue to enjoy bridge in my own way by not opening on the garbage.Good Luck.

[sfi]

It's easy after you open 4H. Partner asks for keycards, finds you don't have the club ace, and bids the slam.

[NickRW]

In ascending order of preference:

2H = no. Too many playing tricks

Pass = no. I suppose it is conceivable that this could work out for the best, but it seems against the odds to me

3H = right on playing tricks, but partner will not raise to 4 on hands that can make

4H = could also end in tears, but seems on balance the best guess

[PhilG007]

 cherdano, on 2017-March-31, 14:37, said:

I can't believe anyone would pass this. If 4H breaks this partnership, then you should be glad to get out.
Oh. And if you were taught that 4H shows 8 tricks at equal vulnerability, then it's about time to drop out of the class and start forgetting what you were taught.


This hand makes 7 tricks in hearts, and 0 elsewhere. End of story.

One of the first things you are taught as a beginner is that to bid a suit,you must have reasonable cards in it.
I don't regard any suit headed by a 10 as reasonable....no matter HOW long it is.

[msjennifer]

 PhilG007, on 2017-April-01, 05:26, said:

One of the first things you are taught as a beginner is that to bid a suit,you must have reasonable cards in it.
I don't regard any suit headed by a 10 as reasonable....no matter HOW long it is.

Unfortunately one was born an expert(?) One was never ever a beginner. Those who open 4H have not answered my question that what will they open on x,AKxxxxxx,xx,xx ? They can't open 4H ,as that bid is reserved for the garbage hand,so Pass,1/2/3 H are left.Judge for yourself !

[eagles123]

Come on we have 9 hearts and people are saying to pass!!!!!

4h seems totally auto

[RedSpawn]

This poll illustrates a very important point about preemptive bids.

Generally, a preemptive suit should contain 2 of the top 3 honors OR 3 of the 5 top honors.

Why? Because SUIT QUALITY MATTERS IN PREEMPTIVE BIDS.

You can relax this rule a little bit to contain 2 of the top 4 honors, but this is a general guideline to ensure that the preemptor has REASONABLE CONTROL of the suit he wants to establish as trump. To be specific, REASONABLE CONTROL means that the PREEMPTIVE suit has both the length AND honor strength to justify taking up huge amounts of bidding space and potentially closing out the auction.

This general guideline helps ensure that:

• The preemptor can gain reasonable control of the board during declaration;
  
• The trump suit will establish a decent amount of playing tricks once the missing honors drop; and most importantly,
  
• The preemptor does not usurp a more profitable preemptive bid that his partner may have.

9♠ 10987645432♥ Q3♦ 9♣

This hand definitely has the length with 9 cards but it has no honor strength. All we have is a lowly 10♥ and the rest of the honor crew, AKQJ♥, is missing in action.

You can NOT describe this hand as having a "good" 9 card suit. And just as you have an ugly 9 card ♥ suit on this goulash-like board, someone else may have VERY pretty hearts.

For example, take the board below:

---

South passed his 7 card ♦ suit? Why? Because he knows how to faithfully play his position. He has a bust hand and a poor quality diamond suit so he engages the PASS button.

West has the same predicament but for some reason almost everyone on BBO is saying bid 4♥ in 2nd seat with a very QUESTIONABLE ♥ suit. The best answer is PASS because your partner: 1) has a better bid if you will only let him make it and 2) has a more accurate assessment of where asset values lay in auction as the 4th seat bidder. . . but you must PASS with a bust hand containing 2 HCP.

Hard to do, isn't it?

Can you honestly justify taking out your partner's 4♠ overcall of a 2♣ open? Your partner has a good 8 card ♠ suit containing 3 of 5 honors. He has the goods to place the partnership in a relatively safe place - West DOES NOT!

All West really has is good intentions and the road to HADES is paved with plenty of good intentions.

The opposition does NOT have a slam and bidding 4♥ is down 3 which is NOT good bridge. And your team has 4♠ cold as the cards lay. A player should not make executive decisions about the partnership's future while sitting in 2nd seat and holding a bust hand.

MORAL OF THE STORY:

• Play your position;
  
• Stop bidding your partner's hand;
  
• Pre-empt with decent suit quality; and
  
• Engage PASS button with bust hands containing 0-3 HCP!

[eagles123]

 RedSpawn, on 2017-April-01, 11:53, said:

This poll illustrates a very important point about preemptive bids.

Generally, a preemptive suit should contain 2 of the top 3 honors OR 3 of the 5 top honors.

Why? Because SUIT QUALITY MATTERS IN PREEMPTIVE BIDS.

[/b][/u] You can relax this rule a little bit, but this is a general guideline to ensure that the preemptor has REASONABLE CONTROL of the suit he wants to establish as trump. To be specific, REASONABLE CONTROL means that the PREEMPTIVE suit has both the length AND honor strength to justify taking up huge amounts of bidding space and potentially closing out the auction.

This general guideline helps ensure that:

• The preemptor can gain reasonable control of the board during declaration;
  
• The trump suit will establish a decent amount of playing tricks once the missing honors drop; and most importantly,
  
• The preemptor does not usurp a more profitable preemptive bid that his partner may have.

Why? Because you want to ensure that the playing tricks you allege to take actually materialize.

9♠ 10987645432♥ Q3♦ 9♣

This hand definitely has the length with 9 cards but it has no honor strength (all we have is a lowly 10 and the rest of the honor crew is missing in action). This hand has only 5 playing tricks and is missing the AKQJ♥,. You can NOT describe this hand as a "good" 9 card suit. And just as you have an ugly 9 card ♥ suit it is possible that someone else has VERY pretty hearts.

For example, take the board below:

---

South passed his 7 card ♦ suit? Why? Because he knows how to faithfully play his position. He has a bust hand and a poor quality diamond suit so he engages the PASS button.

West has the same predicament for but for some reason almost everyone on BBO is saying bid 4♥ in 2nd seat with a very QUESTIONABLE ♥ suit. The best answer is PASS because your partner 1) has a better pre-emptive bid with a HIGHER DENOMINATION VALUE and 2) has a more accurate assessment of where asset values lay in auction as the 4th seat bidder.

Can you honestly justify taking out your partner's 4♠ overcall of a 2♣ open? The opposition does NOT have a slam and bidding 4♥ is down 3 which is NOT good bridge. And your team has 4♠ cold as the cards lay. One should not be making executive decisions or predicting the future with bust hands.

MORAL OF THE STORY: 1) PLAY YOUR POSITION 2) STOP BIDDING YOUR PARTNER'S HAND 3) PRE-EMPT WITH DECENT VALUES AND SUIT QUALITY 4) ENGAGE PASS BUTTON WITH BUST HANDS 0-3 PTS!

for ***** sake

[cherdano]

 msjennifer, on 2017-April-01, 03:16, said:

It appears you want to teach EIGHT voters to drop out of the class.I have not seen even a single renowned book on bidding various systems advocating to open with s bid Of 4 H on the garbage hand.Perhaps your new book may change the face of bridge and I wish good luck to you.Your super champion intentions are meant only to obstruct opponents and also your partner.I follow what is given in the text books and my teacher ,who has international repute having won many events like the Reisinger et all.He just asked me to IGNORE your and others comments saying "They have the right to open 4H ,but at the same time they are not ENTTLED to ridicule others not agreeing with them".A very POLITE answer indeed ! So I shall just ignore the rebukes and continue to enjoy bridge in my own way by not opening on the garbage.Good Luck.

Have a look at 4M openings on vugraph by world class players at equal vulnerability, then see how many of them have 8 sure tricks.

Of course, I would also open 4H on x AKxxxxx xx xx, but also on x KQJxxxx xx xx (7 tricks) or x KQJxxxx x Kxxx (6.5 tricks).

Your teacher might be the best player in the world. But he chose to teach a style of preempts that, for good reason, now world class player uses.

There is a good reason for what your teacher is choosing to teach - such rules simplify the bidding, help your partner evaluate their hand, and learn to make good decisions opposite such hands. (I truly think that your bidding judgement grows much more quickly if you have at least some opening bids in your arsenal that are very well-defined - e.g. if I were a teacher, I would definitely teach a fairly strict style of weak 2M bids, so that students learn when to bid game. Ideally not by counting hcp or any other rule, but just by visualizing some possible hands for partner and counting tricks.)

But there is also a good reason why no world class player follows such a rule - it is just anti-percentage not to open 4H with this hand. Yes, the range of 4H gets a little wider (but having essentially 7 sure tricks is not THAT weak, compared to a normal 4H opening). But with this hand, it helps you both get to the right contract (when that is 4H) and preempt the opponents much more often.

So not opening 4H with such hands is good advice at a certain stage. But once you are no longer a beginner, but you are an intermediate looking to become an advanced player, it is time to discard it. "Fire your teacher" is the right thing to do, not because you have a bad teacher, but because you are not anymore in the target group of what he is teaching.

Have you never wondered why no world class player follows your teacher's advice?

[Cyberyeti]

 RedSpawn, on 2017-April-01, 11:53, said:

This poll illustrates a very important point about preemptive bids.

Generally, a preemptive suit should contain 2 of the top 3 honors OR 3 of the 5 top honors.

Why? Because SUIT QUALITY MATTERS IN PREEMPTIVE BIDS.

You can relax this rule a little bit to contain 2 of the top 4 honors, but this is a general guideline to ensure that the preemptor has REASONABLE CONTROL of the suit he wants to establish as trump. To be specific, REASONABLE CONTROL means that the PREEMPTIVE suit has both the length AND honor strength to justify taking up huge amounts of bidding space and potentially closing out the auction.

This general guideline helps ensure that:

• The preemptor can gain reasonable control of the board during declaration;
  
• The trump suit will establish a decent amount of playing tricks once the missing honors drop; and most importantly,
  
• The preemptor does not usurp a more profitable preemptive bid that his partner may have.

9♠ 10987645432♥ Q3♦ 9♣

This hand definitely has the length with 9 cards but it has no honor strength. All we have is a lowly 10♥ and the rest of the honor crew, AKQJ♥, is missing in action.

You can NOT describe this hand as having a "good" 9 card suit. And just as you have an ugly 9 card ♥ suit on this goulash-like board, someone else may have VERY pretty hearts.

For example, take the board below:

---

South passed his 7 card ♦ suit? Why? Because he knows how to faithfully play his position. He has a bust hand and a poor quality diamond suit so he engages the PASS button.

West has the same predicament but for some reason almost everyone on BBO is saying bid 4♥ in 2nd seat with a very QUESTIONABLE ♥ suit. The best answer is PASS because your partner: 1) has a better bid if you will only let him and 2) has a more accurate assessment of where asset values lay in auction as the 4th seat bidder. . . but you must PASS with a bust hand.

Hard to do, isn't it?

Can you honestly justify taking out your partner's 4♠ overcall of a 2♣ open? Your partner has a good 8 card ♠ suit containing 3 of 5 honors. He has the goods to place the partnership in a relatively safe place - West DOES NOT!

All West really has is good intentions and the road to HADES is paved with plenty of good intentions.

The opposition does NOT have a slam and bidding 4♥ is down 3 which is NOT good bridge. And your team has 4♠ cold as the cards lay. A player should not make executive decisions about the partnership's future while sitting in 2nd seat and holding a bust hand.

MORAL OF THE STORY:

• Play your position;
  
• Stop bidding your partner's hand;
  
• Pre-empt with decent suit quality; and
  
• Engage PASS button with bust hands containing 0-3 HCP!

Sorry, you must have blundered into the wrong forum, N/B is that way

Your example hand is ridiculous.

a) you being cold for 4♠ is a mirage, opps are cold for 5♣ and may well bid it.
b) if 4♥ is doubled for penalties, partner is quite likely to bid 4♠
c) step out of the 1950s, nobody any good is that rigid with their preempts any more

Also a very good amount of the time, hearts will divide 2-1-1 round the table so if either partner has the ace or the doubleton and you'll have 8 tricks, if not you'll have 7 which is reasonable for 4♥.

Would love to play against you, my preempting style would give you apoplexy.

[RedSpawn]

 Cyberyeti, on 2017-April-01, 13:03, said:

Sorry, you must have blundered into the wrong forum, N/B is that way

Your example hand is ridiculous.

a) you being cold for 4♠ is a mirage, opps are cold for 5♣ and may well bid it.
b) if 4♥ is doubled for penalties, partner is quite likely to bid 4♠
c) step out of the 1950s, nobody any good is that rigid with their preempts any more

Also a very good amount of the time, hearts will divide 2-1-1 round the table so if either partner has the ace or the doubleton and you'll have 8 tricks, if not you'll have 7 which is reasonable for 4♥.

Would love to play against you, my preempting style would give you apoplexy.

Excuse me, West having ♥1098765432 is RIDICULOUS, so how is it not possible for distribution to be WAY OFF on this goulash-like board?

Using probability and normal distribution bell curves on a "goulash-like" board is NOT advisable. You will choke on the cayenne pepper!

Second of all, if the opposition has a 5♣ club contract, the more profitable sacrifice is ALWAYS in ♠, never ♥.

Opening 4♥ with such obscene garbage is not bridge, it is Texas Hold Em Poker.

It's not partnership bidding, it's guerrilla, "Highlander" bidding.

It's the same as igniting a powder keg and hoping to contain the fire IF your partner actually believes you.

If you are in the business of being clever and making gross misrepresentations about your hand's asset value, own the outcome both good and horrible.

I've seen way too many "advanced" & "expert" players on BBO hastily run away from the table when they make a hot mess on the auction board with a 0-3 HCP hand. In fact, I think we call them "runners" on BBO since they have a notorious reputation.

PLAY YOUR POSITION regardless of your professed rating or title. If you have a garbage hand, sit in the corner, be quiet in the auction, and respond when asked (e.g. takeout doubles and forcing bids). Otherwise press PASS and allow your partner to do his job effectively without all of the unwarranted, distracting NOISE coming from the West seat.

[eagles123]

 RedSpawn, on 2017-April-01, 13:28, said:

Excuse me, West having ♥1098765432 is RIDICULOUS, so how is it not possible for distribution to be WAY OFF on this goulash-like board?

Using probability and normal distribution bell curves on a "goulash-like" board is NOT advisable. You will choke on the cayenne pepper!

Second of all, if the opposition has a 5♣ club contract, the more profitable sacrifice is ALWAYS in ♠, never ♥.

Opening 4♥ with such obscene garbage is not bridge, it is Texas Hold Em Poker.

It's not partnership bidding, it's guerrilla, "Highlander" bidding.

It's the same as igniting a powder keg and hoping to contain the fire IF your partner actually believes you.

If you are in the business of being clever and making gross misrepresentations about your hand's asset value, own the outcome both good and horrible.

I've seen way too many "advanced" & "expert" players on BBO hastily run away from the table when they make a hot mess on the auction board with a 0-3 HCP hand. In fact, I think we call them "runners" on BBO since they have a notorious reputation.

PLAY YOUR POSITION regardless of your professed rating or title. If you have a garbage hand, sit in the corner, be quiet in the auction, and respond when asked (e.g. takeout doubles and forcing bids). Otherwise press PASS and allow your partner to do his job effectively without all of the distracting NOISE coming from the West seat.

interesting that as a self proclaimed expert you have an imp average of -0.25 and an mp of 51.02% for the last month. Hardly the stats of an expert player

(I don't claim to be expert at all) but my stats for said period are +0.35/55.11%

[RedSpawn]

 eagles123, on 2017-April-01, 13:40, said:

interesting that as a self proclaimed expert you have an imp average of -0.25 and an mp of 51.02% for the last month. Hardly the stats of an expert player

(I don't claim to be expert at all) but my stats for said period are +0.35/55.11%

Interesting you asked, I play a LOT, and I mean, A LOT of GOULASH bridge . . . with the freakish distribution featured in this PREEMPTIVE BID question.

Also, I make a bad habit of playing with with A LOT pick up partners who open 4♥ with 1098765432♥ and then leave after they make a very hot and messy situation. Sound familiar?

But I will request that you dig a bit deeper and look at individual tourneys the last two weeks as a litmus test to see my mettle.

Just like I am asking you to dig deeper than being wooed by a 9 card ♥ suit headed by a 10, please look at the detail level of the Tourneys below between 03/20/17 - 04 /03/17:

(feel free to verify through MyHands)

• #926 PAIRS MIDNIGHT FUN RANKED 3RD OUT OF 88 TEAMS (top 3%, I know, horrible, right?)
  
• #3188 Pairs Seniors Moment RANKED 47 OUT OF 222 TEAMS (I played with pick-up partner but top 21% )
  
• #3725 HORNETS FUN RANKED 41 OUT OF 142 TEAMS (top 30% with pick up partner)
  
• #7922 Pairs Club WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP RANKED 70 OUT OF 218 TEAMS (ranked top 33% again)
  
• #9151 Pairs Blond Magic RANKED 14 OUT OF 92 TEAMS (I know, horrible right, top 15%)
  
• #6338 Pairs (_)o COFFEE CLUB (_)o RANKED 19 OUT OF 44 TEAMS (I had another pick up partner but I take my lumps as given.)
  
• #1417 EARLY BIRD RANKED 29 OUT OF 144 TEAMS (HORRENDOUS, top 20%)
  
• #213 PAIRS BRIDGE BAKLAVA RANKED 2 OUT OF 132 TEAMS (TRAIN WRECK!)
  
• #2166 PAIRS BAKLAVA RANKED 3 OUT OF 116 TEAMS (AWFUL!)
  
• #7572 PAIRS YUMMY GOULASH RANKED 25 OUT OF 214 TEAMS (top 12%, horrible right?).
  
• #9201 Pairs Happy Bridge Group Goulash RANKED 14 OUT OF 102 TEAMS (top 14%).
  
• #6336 Pairs (_)o COFFEE CLUB (_)o RANKED 15 OUT OF 50 TEAMS (top 30%).
  
• #***BSC*** Survivor Series RANKED 14 OUT OF 42 TEAMS (top 30%)
  
• #573 Pairs Hornets Early Game RANKED 10 OUT 74 TEAMS (top 10%)

This is my last discussing this topic about my statistics. There is no way I can be a beginner, novice, and the like and have these kind of rankings in the last few days (03/20/17 through 04/03/17 especially when playing against HUNDREDS of teams on BBO some of whom may be using a 2nd IPhone or Samsung device as an "aid" to better bidding).

I will not even look at your statistics on MyHands because for you to stoop to this all-time low proves you are out of ammunition. When out of fuel, you don't attack principles, you attack people. You will not discuss the merits of the topic but you will throw poisoned darts at me for your comeuppance.

Nice try. Better luck next time.