[Joe_Old]

msjennifer, on 2016-December-30, 13:38, said:

Whosoever this Marshal is,he is definitely not living in 21st century !On reading all the discussion on this hand he wii certainly refund all those who have purchased his book.It appears that the so called negative doubles are actually " unusual positive " bids.No one has anywhere mentioned as to how many total losers be there or even the number of losers in the major suits based hand.The definition must also extend to single suited ' negative doubles' .Is there a common agreed understanding if responder had bid 2H/S or 3H/S and the same bids after making a negative double?
Unless and until these are worked out not only on HCP limits but also on the losers in the hand and" defined "clearly there are bound to be multiple opinions on the problems posed not only on today's hands but many dissimilar hands in the future too.On today's hand if opener bids 3 Spade how can it be nonforcing? And if somebody says so then is it an invitational bid? What are the requirements for responder to bid 4S if 3S is invitational? Although not very pleasing,3S bid appears to be the only choice left for this hand,

Marshall Miles was a 5 time NABC+ champion, and is a member of the ACBL Hall of Fame. He died in 2013, and was still a force in major tournaments well into this century.
True, he was considered idiosyncratic and very difficult to partner, but nobody who understands bridge dismisses his opinion lightly.

[iandayre]

GrahamJson, on 2016-December-30, 12:35, said:

Having checked a few sources, all seem to agree that a cue bid is the only forcing continuation by opener after a negative double. To play a jump rebid, 3S in the above example, as forcing must surely make a simple rebid have far too wide a range. Incidentally, Miles also mentions that a negative double at the two level should show a minimum of a 9 count, making the east hand above a dead minimum.

Thank you, obviously many here are not familiar with the sources. If you want to agree that the jump is forcing, you may, but it is NOT standard.

[Kaitlyn S]

eagles123, on 2016-December-30, 15:39, said:

ps i made a poll on bridge winners for whether 3s is forcing or not: http://bridgewinners...t-2-mnikbh3y2q/

Ha! I got to vote with my unverified account. So far, it's 82 for NF, 6 for forcing.

[m1cha]

msjennifer, on 2016-December-30, 13:38, said:

What are the requirements for responder to bid 4S if 3S is invitational?

4♠ should not exist since responder did not promise ♠ support. Overcall 3♣ to force to game and let partner bid the lowest 4-card major.

[Kaitlyn S]

m1cha, on 2016-December-30, 21:02, said:

4♠ should not exist since responder did not promise ♠ support. Overcall 3♣ to force to game and let partner bid the lowest 4-card major.

You could bid 4S with four spades and tons of diamonds. Or by partnership agreement, it could be 5 spades & 6 diamonds.

[SteveMoe]

m1cha, on 2016-December-30, 21:02, said:

4♠ should not exist since responder did not promise ♠ support. Overcall 3♣ to force to game and let partner bid the lowest 4-card major.

Kaitlyn S, on 2016-December-31, 00:39, said:

You could bid 4S with four spades and tons of diamonds. Or by partnership agreement, it could be 5 spades & 6 diamonds.

Would seem to support that the jump to 3♠ show a 5-card suit. Why waste the space?

[Kaitlyn S]

SteveMoe, on 2016-December-31, 07:49, said:

Would seem to support that the jump to 3♠ show a 5-card suit. Why waste the space?

Because 5-6 isn't that common and 3S is useful to show strength to avoid making 2S too wide range.

[Winstonm]

Kaitlyn S, on 2016-December-31, 13:12, said:

Because 5-6 isn't that common and 3S is useful to show strength to avoid making 2S too wide range.

Not saying it is wrong to bid 3S, but a consideration is that it really boxes partner in when he has a 1-suited heart double, hence, the old style was to use picture bids, even if the holdings described were fairly uncommon.

[Trinidad]

Winstonm, on 2017-January-01, 10:25, said:

Not saying it is wrong to bid 3S, but a consideration is that it really boxes partner in when he has a 1-suited heart double, hence, the old style was to use picture bids, even if the holdings described were fairly uncommon.

If partner has a one suited heart double, he will (okay, should) have enough values to be able to play game opposite my hand. bacause the negative double means that we can play a contract in 2♦, 2♥, 2♠ or 2NT, opposite a minimum 1♦ opening. We have considerable extras, so we should be able to play in game. This could be in hearts, NT or diamonds.

You do not make a negative double on ♠Jx ♥AJxx ♦xx ♣xxxxx. (What would you do after 2♠?)

Rik

[mike777]

This thread highlights the dangers of making a negative double on this auction with less than invitational values. Just look at all the different responses and the at the table result of playing 3s making 6. Clearly there are many dangerous hands when making a negative double with less than inv. hands on this auction.

Unsaid but my guess is posters find the danger of the opponents stealing from them to be the greater danger, hence the support for the negative double.

[Phil]

MrAce, on 2016-December-30, 15:18, said:

There are 4 types of posters here, and people in life too.

1-those who don't know that they don't know;
2-those who know that they don't know;
3-those who don't know that they know;
4-and those who know that they know.

They all have their own annoying effects to some degree but among them the people in 1st group are the ones who embarrasses themselves the most!

Marshall Miles. R.I.P, was a bridge player whose knowledge in his little toe is something you will never achieve in your entire life. But you do not know that either, because someone taught you LTC instead of bridge and you are living the dream that you solved it all!

Yes, Marshall was pretty special. I think Timo was lucky enough to play with him. I had made plans for a game with him but regrettably he retired to the great game in the sky a few months later before we had the chance. Im lucky enough to frequently play with other So Cal icons, because I realize one day they will no longer be with us.

The amount of ignorance of MsJennifer is displaying is truly unbelievable. Even if you have never heard of him a five second google search would show reveal his wiki article, the obit in the effing NYT, and the fact he is in the ACBL HOF.

So not only does this poster reveal zero worldliness in bridge she also exhibits a lack of being able to independently find out the answer to something on her own and is content to spout platitudes.

None of these traits is becoming to a bridge player.

[Fluffy]

I play 3♣ GF any and jumps invitational, but I am lately finding less and less invitational hands and more GF, so switching starts to make sense.

Your range for double is also important, modern style seems to be to double from 6+, while 8+ was what I was taught.

[Trinidad]

Fluffy, on 2017-January-02, 06:07, said:

I play 3♣ GF any and jumps invitational, but I am lately finding less and less invitational hands and more GF, so switching starts to make sense.

Your range for double is also important, modern style seems to be to double from 6+, while 8+ was what I was taught.

I don't have any problem doubling with 6... if I am sure that there will be a playable contract. And if you have that certainty, you still want to play in game with the hand from the OP (e.g., ♠Qxxx ♥Kxxx ♦Jxx ♣xx).

Rik

[Winstonm]

Trinidad, on 2017-January-01, 12:16, said:

If partner has a one suited heart double, he will (okay, should) have enough values to be able to play game opposite my hand. bacause the negative double means that we can play a contract in 2♦, 2♥, 2♠ or 2NT, opposite a minimum 1♦ opening. We have considerable extras, so we should be able to play in game. This could be in hearts, NT or diamonds.

You do not make a negative double on ♠Jx ♥AJxx ♦xx ♣xxxxx. (What would you do after 2♠?)

Rik

Here is my thinking on negative doubles: at the one level, I should have a minimum of a 1-level response. At the 2-level, negative doubles of 2C/2D are different than 2H and 2S - each needs a slightly better hand, and the worse the holding (i.e., not both unbids) the stronger the hand should be. This is not because I think it so but because it simply makes sense that it requires more power to make a higher contract without a good fit.

On the hand you described, I would raise clubs immediately and eschew hearts. If partner does not have a reverse into hearts, what is the point? If he does, he can bid hearts. (Btw, I do agree with the principle that only 1 Major needs to be held for the double provided that adequate support for opener's suit is held - but even then it is best to keep in mind that your bid is forcing you to correct at the 3 level. I don't think this hand is good enough for that)

Also, given your hand of Jx, AJxx, xx, xxxxx do you really want to bid 4C over partner's forcing 3S? I suppose one can play that way, but I think it makes the game more difficult than it already is.

[Trinidad]

Winstonm, on 2017-January-03, 13:27, said:

On the hand you described [♠Jx ♥AJxx ♦xx ♣xxxxx], I would raise clubs immediately and eschew hearts.

I would do exactly the same... if partner had opened 1♣. But he opened 1♦. I trust that in that case you would pass, just like me.

Rik